Influence Of Punjabiyat On Sikhs?

[Guest]

Here is the food for thought- Influence of Punjabiyat on Sikhs Today?

I don't mean to offend anyone or come across stereotypical but as an observer of sikh issues- sikhs fighting like sissy girls in maharaj darbar abroad, i cannot stop thinking if sikh panth had half gorreh in them, you wouldn't get this kinda issues spewing from them. I m not racist, its nothing to do with race here. I think main underlining issues comes down to influence of punjabi culture on sikhs even after they have taken amrit. When these people take amrit, crudeness of punjabi culture, intolerance, power control, jealously, caste distinction are still quite ingrained in them. Hence, all these problems. Western culture no matter how kalyugi it might be or spiritualy bankrupt might be still has good attributes be it polite, courteous, considerate of others. They won't fights like dogs in their church.

I guess real challenge here comes down to wait for 3rd generation sikhs take over gurdwaras with guidance of mahapursh, gurmukhs who are nirlaip from corruptness of punjab.

I am quite shame today to be an punjabi who trying to become sikh. I seriously never met such un-grateful group in my life. We are seriously uniquely ungrateful group out here. There is so much negative energy around our people in real life is unbelievable. They whine if there is no parchar, they still whine if there is parchar as they don't agree with the parchar. If these people got juice, they should stand up and do parchar instead of whining.

Anyway sorry for off-topic, this is my rant..whats your view on?

Influence of punjabiyat on Sikhs?

Please Share?

[tonyhp32]

I understand what you are saying but you also need to understand that the Sikh Panth today is infiltrated with people who have no hamdardi for Sikhism and are only out there for themselves. Look at any issue and you will see that it involves a certain number of so-called leaders who will rake up an issue, shout themselves hoarse and when they see their kursi in danger, they will then join up with the same people they only criticised as 'anti-Panth' the day before. This started up in the political sphere with the Master Tara Singh and Sant Fateh Singh dispute and then carried on through to Badal-Barnala-Longowal. Because the political leaders controlled the religious establishment as well they brought their dispute there as well. It is nothing to do with Punjabiyat but all to do with politics.

[dalsingh101]

I think main underlining issues comes down to influence of punjabi culture on sikhs even after they have taken amrit. When these people take amrit, crudeness of punjabi culture, intolerance, power control, jealously, caste distinction are still quite ingrained in them. Hence, all these problems. Western culture no matter how kalyugi it might be or spiritualy bankrupt might be still has good attributes be it polite, courteous, considerate of others. They won't fights like dogs in their church.

I thought the same too but when you look at it more carefully some of the problems you mention are not Punjabiayat issues but Sikh ones, because as far as I can tell, if they were strictly Punjabiyat ones, the HPs and Pak Panjabi communities would also be ridden with them, and they seem not to be. That isn't to say there aren't plenty of nasty aspects to Punjabi culture, just that some crap we see taking place is actually uniquely 'Sikh' not Punjabi.

I don't agree with you analysis of goray either. They may be superficially polite etc. but they are still responsible for much needless displacement and death of nonwhites, across the globe, both directly and indirectly. I don't think their minding their ps and qs a bit more than most absolves them from this. But, yes, we could learn a lot regarding internal cooperation from some of them. To put things in balance though, they may not fight like cissy rabid dogs in their churches like our lot do, but then we haven't got a massive problem with our gianis trying to fiddle with little boys either, as far as I am aware. I know a few cases have occurred but it isn't an epidemic in our society.

But your point about people taking amrit and then still acting like complete assholes in multiple ways is a strong one. I sometimes wonder why certain people bother to do it when they act like they do?

Truth is, the quom still has the quality of pendu hill billy about it quite strongly. We just can't see it for our egos but I imagine many outsiders can.

Edited September 1, 2010 by dalsingh101

[kdsingh80]

I thought the same too but when you look at it more carefully some of the problems you mention are not Punjabiayat issues but Sikh ones, because as far as I can tell, if they were strictly Punjabiyat ones, the HPs and Pak Panjabi communities would also be ridden with them, and they seem not to be.

Before comparing Sikhs with Hps or Pak punjabi's you have to understand the difference between them.Unlike sikhs Hindu Punjabi's are hardly from rural background.Even among sikhs you will not much found caste discrimination the sikhs that lives in urban cities of India.Among corruption level Hindu Punjabi's are known worst than sikhs.

I don't know much about pak punjabi's so can't comment much on them but I have read that jatt punjabi's too there are very much caste conscious

[dalsingh101]

Before comparing Sikhs with Hps or Pak punjabi's you have to understand the difference between them.Unlike sikhs Hindu Punjabi's are hardly from rural background.Even among sikhs you will not much found caste discrimination the sikhs that lives in urban cities of India.Among corruption level Hindu Punjabi's are known worst than sikhs.

Well, that backward mentality that comes from being rural must effect the panth significantly because the majority of the quom are from that background (myself included). You can see the manifestation of this in even Sikh majority pinds with their caste based organisation. As for corruption levels, if HPs are more corrupt than Sikhs, it definitely isn't for lack of trying on our people's part, some of whom don't even spare Gurdwaras in their scams. Our people just do everything conspicuously, I'm sure others do it all too, maybe even worse than us! They just aren't as loud and noticeable about it like our lot.

I don't know much about pak punjabi's so can't comment much on them but I have read that jatt punjabi's too there are very much caste conscious

I have grown up and lived around these people, so I think I have insight. The truth is that being a Jatt is something Panjabi Musalmans are frequently ashamed of and often cover up by describing themselves as Rajput. When you do come across the idiotic equivalent of the 'Sikh' caste obsessed Jatt, they have usually grown up around majority Sikhs areas and have adopted the behavior/attitude of the apnay around them. In their own community Musalman Jatts are nothing like our own ones regarding their caste or generally. They are infinitely more reserved, but then so is a jungli pusso compared to some of our brothers out there. The Musalman card seems to truly trump the caste one with most sullay. That isn't to say no caste consciousness exists, but that they know this is superseded by their faith. I would imagine even more so now with the perception of being under attack being common.

Edited September 1, 2010 by dalsingh101

[tonyhp32]

The Haryanvi Jaat 'Aya Ram, Gaya Ram' political culture is much more corrupt than anything the Sikh Jats have ever come up with. Jaats are also more caste minded than Sikh jats. I remember having a discussion with a well read Hindu Jaat from Hissar region in the mid 90s who used to study at SOAS in London. His views were that the Kingdom of Maharaja Ranjit Singh was a Jat state and he constantly referred to the Durbar Army as a Jat army. He hated the Rajputs, who in his area had always been majority Hindu and he had some dream of downgrading and 'punishing' ( his words) the Rajputs with the help of the Sikh Jats of Punjab. I had a good debate with his especially since his views of Sikhism was that it was a Hindu sect etc. He might be typical of an educated Hindu Jaat or he could be their version of Mr Rajinder Singh Nijjar but he had some pretty extreme views when it came to caste.

With regard to Muslim Jats they had always been foreshadowed by the Rajputs and hence their dislike to being referred to as Jats and tendency to want be known as Rajputs. One of the Jat gotras to achieve some political independence during the Misl days were the Chathas of Gujranwala and Gujrat who were then pretty much decimated and evicted from their lands by the Sukkarchakkias. Muslim Jats and Rajputs are a large percentage of the population and so can command a lot of power both are still lower than the Syeds and Pathans. If they were on top of a notional West Punjab caste heirarchy then there's no doubt they would also want to proudly claim to be Jats.

[dalsingh101]

What I wonder about Sikh Jatts is if their caste pride so important that they are perfectly willing/happy to weaken the overall panth in pursuing it?

Because I tell you what, if Jatts are so called leaders of the panth they have been doing quite a crap job of it lately.

Besides, even an idiot should be able to figure out that acting obnoxious in times of success pretty much guarantees apathy or even antipathy from other parties in times of need. Hence no one really gives a monkeys about the so-called farmer suicide epidemics etc. Plus you can see how the idiot type pervaded the K'stan movement towards the end (as well as fought on the side of Bharat Mata), pretty much putting any decent human off the cause.

Are progressive farmers a rarity out there with the vast majority just itching to go 'bwaaaah, mein jatt ai aan!' at any given opportunity (especially after a glassy)?

Let's hear what a 'bwaah Jatt' has to say about the progression of, and reflection on, the state of the panth today. Would be very interesting.

[dalsingh101]

When you think about it in general, Panjabis are lame when it comes to Sikhi. It's like a silk scarf on a boorish pig quite frequently.

[amardeep]

As a gora singh once told me "Its a shame God sent Sikhism to the Punjab region" lol

[Guest]

As a gora singh once told me "Its a shame God sent Sikhism to the Punjab region" lol

And we took that comment as compliment, didn't we? LoL

[dalsingh101]

And we took that comment as compliment, didn't we? LoL

Come on, zoom out and see things in proper perspective. As messed up as we are (and that is pretty badly), some things goray have done with their own religious institutes is pretty terrible. We haven't had an inquisition yet (but are getting there fast it seems). We aren't riddled with paedophiles as far as I know. My friend works in Roman Catholic schools, she says the goray staff are frequently having affairs, this in a so called religious school.

Our biggest problems are lack of cohesion due to constant schismatic tendencies. Sensationalism on any potential 'beadbi' real or imagined. The most pig ignorant, hot headed reactions to theological and other differences culminating in stereotypical overkill with violence (baran buj gay Singhaan de incidents) or limp wristed and shouting shoving in front of our maharaj, usually becoming a police incident.

Ironic thing is, simran itself is meant to dissolve these tendencies away. Says a lot.

That being said, can anyone see ANY progress? I thought Canada was getting there with all those youth getting elected. UK seems pretty screwed to me overall despite small hidden treasures here and there.

We CAN get there. We aren't stuck in our current state. Things can be changed for the better. It wont be easy or overnight, but it is possible.

Edited September 1, 2010 by dalsingh101