tonyhp32

The mentality of those who convert to Islam can be seen from the following debate-; http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/console/b00x2sjj/5_live_Breakfast_Your_Call_Why_do_people_convert_to_Islam

Dalsingh No offence but just because you see a few numbnutss becoming Muslims in some East End where you live, it doesn't mean that tens of thousands are converting to Islam all over the county. It helps the Islamic agenda if they can make it a general belief that tens of thousands of non-Muslims are converting. It serves two purposes, one it buttresses the faith of born Muslims as even though they may have a doubts about Islam they will not look elsewhere and two it may push those who have doubts about converting to Islam into take the last step. I did not say that conversions do not happen but the converts I have met tend to be insecure individuals who in many case have not been told all the facts about Islam. The report mentions a white woman who converted to Islam and who is a dance teacher. Now do you think she was told the truth about whether the job she does is in line with Islam or not? I remember the first white convert I met at university and his reason for converting was that he had been told that Neil Armstrong upon landing on the moon heard the azaan and then during a visit to Egypt he again heard the azaan and then realising what he had heard he instantly converted to Islam! Of course that story is a lie but way the Muslims propagated this story in order to bring some numbnuts to Islam shows how lying is just an extension of their parchar. So my post was spreading pendu style hate? Did you bother to read what I wrote. At least I had the sense to research the data the report claims to have based its results on. All you have is that in your area you've seen some people become Muslim. I suppose your anecdotal evidence outweighs official data! I suppose the government will be wasting millions on the census in a few months time, they should just ask you for your estimate of the population and save all those millions. For someone who hasn't even been to a pind you seem to have a lot of opinions about pendus and the like.

The report is pure propaganda. There is no doubt that there are conversions to Islam but the numbers seem to be inflated. The report bases its findings on ringing up Mosques and asking how many converts there have been in the last year and their race and gender! That's a bit liking asking this guy how many American infidels the glorious Iraqi army have dispatched to hell in the last 24 hours! As we should all know by now, lying is allowed in Islam as long as the ends justify it. Now if the intention is to create a notion in people minds that Islam is gaining all these converts this can only create a effect of more people researching Islam and pushing those who were hesitant to convert to Islam. The report bases some of its findings on the 2001 census of Scotland which contains data on the current religion as well as the religion of birth in its datasets. According to the census there were 1187 people whose current religion was Islam but who had been born into non-Muslims families. There were also 329 persons who had been born Muslims and who had since then converted to other religions. There were also 846 person who had been born Muslims and who now classed themselves as having no religion. All this basically cancels itself out. Islam loses 1175 persons to other religions and no religions and gains 1187 persons from other religions. That's a net gain on 12 people in the whole of Scotland! It is interesting that the report did not delve into the losses suffered by Islam and the growing numbers of Muslims who class themselves as having no religion. The reason why you don't hear this publicised in the media is that any Muslim who openly admits to having converted to another religion or not believing in Allah is basically painting a target on their backs! This is why we only see reports such as these featuring beaming converts espousing how great Islam is.

Both families should have been booked for turning what is supposed to be sacramant into a business deal. Only in India can one chor get the police to book another chor for stealing from him! Surely this must be illegal under western immigration laws.

The fools think they will be able send up a manned mission in a few years time!

It's not just humans that are having a bad time. This video made me sick! http://www.metro.co.uk/news/849790-diplomats-son-battered-labrador-puppy-after-having-a-bad-day

Unfortunately some things need to be said and since we are all adults here I assume some no nonsense views might do some good to some people. There was no threat of violence or rudeness from me. I just stated that facts as I see them. Too many fools running around after Sadhus/Pirs/Fakirs/Fake Gurus who are basically charlatans with an agenda. It's such bhajj natth which was never there before that has led to nonsense questions like 'Can a Sikh do Namaz?' It won't be long before someone comes on here and would like to know whether he can say 'Hail Mary', indulge in self mutilation with the Shias or even eat Halal meat. Some people on here argue that it is insensitivity to the questions that some Sikhs come up with that leads to some fools running off to other religions. In my mind it's the over sensitivity to the feelings of fools who should know better that it leading to such things. Sikhs were also known as no nonsense people, now we bend over backwards to answer questions which a few years ago would have invited a slap and probably brought a fool to his senses. Why weren't Sikhs in the 18th century to a decade ago not running off to other religions? It was because Sikhs weren't wishy washy bleeding heart liberal idiots bending over backwards not to hurt the poor sap who has been enamoured by some whirling Sufi layabout.

It's interesting that had the original question of the topic poster been asked of a Sikh a decade ago the automatic answer would have been a NO and possibly followed by a rebuke to the questioner for asking such a question. Not offence to the original poster but that that is what would have happened a few years ago. But in the last decade Sikhi has been inundated by wishy washy liberal 'scholars' who are basically turning Sikhi into a mini version of Hinduism. Just as in Hinduism anything goes and there is no hard and set rule to define the identity of a Hindu so it will become for a Sikh. Already we have categories of 'Sikhs' being invented such as Hindu-Sikh and Muslim-Sikh! Categories such as Sehajdhari which have always been used for the first generation of Hindus or Muslims taking the first step towards taking the Rehat are now used for those who belong to Sikh families and basically can't be bothered to follow the faith yet want all the rights and privileges that come with the faith. The successor of Mian Mir who incidentally believes that Guru Nanak went to Mecca and Baghdad to seek religious guidance from the Muslim Sufis we are now told has a diary of which Sikhs aren't ready I assume spiritually for? I can't imagine a Sikh prior to a few years ago giving such a person the time of day let alone fawning over him. If such kuchay peelay Sikhs that fawn over that charlatan actually had any faith in Gurbani they would know that there has never been a belief let alone a debate by Sikhs whether Guru Nanak ever needed religious guidance from any tradition. Did Guru Nanak only become a Jagat Guru after a period of religious or spiritual guidance under various other traditions or faiths? I suggest that wishy washy Sikhs need to spend more time reading Gurbani and the first vaar of Bhai Gurdas rather than running after charlatans with an agenda from other religions. The way Sikhi is going soon a 'Sikh' will be able to do anything which goes against the Rehat probably short of murder and rape and still claim to be a Sikh. I can't even imagine a question like the one asked by the poster being asked by any Sikh from the time of Guru Nanak to a few years ago. I can't imagine any Sikh standing up and asking Guru Gobind Singh this question. If it wasn't asked before than maybe we need to consider why and then we will get the answer. As for the poster who stated the Al Fatiha verse in the Quran as being in line with Gurmat, I give a similar reply, spend more time reading Gurbani and less time on 'interfaith' promotion. Al Fatiha states that the Jews have earned the anger of Allah and the Christians have been led astray. Hardly in line with Gurbani.

The thread went off on a tangent about the anti-Jat beliefs of some members purely because one member who constantly defends Muslims wanted to portray the Jats as doing the same things that these Pakis were doing. He even went on to lie that Jats in the UK have the same mentality against non-Jats. He was then joined by another Jat hater who just needs a whiff of a mention of Jats to go off on his own anti-Jat crusade even though it's obvious he hasn't even been to a Punjab and bases his hatred of Jats on the behaviour of Jat colleagues. This still doesn't make you an authority on what happens in Punjab villages. There's no denial here, it's you in your ignorance thinks that Jats are all evil sharabi kababi landholders raping the lower-castes 24/7. Show me the evidence to back up your pet theory just as I shown you stats to back up my views. If there was a mass problem of Jats raping low castes in Punjab then you have the crime stats back up that fact. As I showed the stats show that show that out od about 1000 rapes in Punjab about 7 were of low castes. Remarkably low given that low castes make up about 30% of the Punjab population. I am not denying that many cases can be covered up and pay offs made to the Police but eventually most cases will make the law courts. As the stats also showed Punjab has the lowest cases of crimes against low castes recorded in India. This also shows that your views on the matter lack evidence and are based on your own and your caste groups bias against Jats. Your rant above tells me more about you than anything about so-called Jat culture. You have issues and you are no different from Bahadur in that regard, the Niddar followers did some bad things to him and he goes on rants on various forums against Sikhs and you had some bad experiences with Jats and you lose no opportunity to show your hatred of Jats. I suggest that if you have any spare time you go to Punjab and actually live in a village amongst Jats. Jats are no different from other people, there is good and bad in them but going by what views of them you display here, one would think that they are all evil and there is no redeeming trait in any of them. DO NOT base your views of Jats on idiots on sites like Jatworld and the like. If these guys went to Punjab and espoused the crud they do about how great Jats, most Jats in Punjab would just consider them as baharley idiots. That was stereotyping by the way, now you know how it feels to be stereotyped! I know one member has the username Jattboot on the forum but again that just shows his own mentality and issues. I hope he also outgrows his childish hatred of Jats. As for Jats referring to other castes by derogatory terms. If you consider Mistri, Tarkhan, Chuhra or Chamar as derogatory terms then you have a point. But these are hardly the n-word are they? As for Bhappa that's a a term used mainly in Malwa but nowadays all over Punjab because pre-1947 there were hardly any Khatris in the area. When they migrated to Malwa in 1947 and they way they addressed their elders as 'Bhappaji' had never been heard by Jats before. So they started to refer to Khatris as Bhappas. So tell me what exactly is the Jat culture that is destroying Sikhi?

As I have written numerous times on other threads many people including Dalsingh101 have very little experience or knowledge of what is happening in Punjab. I doubt he's even been to a Punjabi village given the amount of ignorant statements he has made about Jats or as he refers to them farmers. Commenting on issues that one does not have much knowledge of or bringing an anecdote of a desi eyeing up a 15 year old gori as a basis for justifying ignorant remarks about Jats having a phenomena of 'rapists' within their ranks is just another manifestation of his hatred for Jats. Using the cloak of Sikhism to justify his hatred just makes him a bad the Jats he criticises. It's laughable that just because he's heard Jat guys making comments just like Pakis. I suppose he never heard any Tarkhan guy say the same thing. Talk about stereotyping, he's more like the British colonialists he claims to despise only they believed in a martial race theory and he believes in a 'rapist' Jat theory! Let's get to the crux of the matter and look to official crime statistics and not anecdotes of Desis eyeing up Goris as a basis of our beliefs. According to the official publications, Crime in India which are similar to the crime surveys published by the UK authorities there are the figures. Out of 15,962 crimes of rape recorded in India in 1999, 282 or 1.76% were in Punjab. Population wise Punjab is 2.50% of the total Indian population. I suppose those rapist Jats didn't have a very good year that year considering the fact that in Dalsingh's mind they do nothing but rape low castes all day. In fact the statistics state that whilst in India the incidence of rape of scheduled caste was 1000 only 7 of these were in Punjab! On Dalsingh's favourite subject of caste, of the 14,578 offences registered under the prevention of atrocities against scheduled castes/schedules tribes act, a mere 15 were recorded in Punjab! Even the way such offences are registered is a mockery as recently a Jat father murdered a low caste guy who he discovered in the middle of the night with his daughter in a compromising position in his own house! The low caste guy had jumped a wall into the Jat's house. The Jat killed the low caste guy and guess under what act he was booked? The prevention of atrocities against scheduled castes/tribes act! How does that square with Dalsingh's idea of what is happening in Punjab? Admit it Dalsingh, you've never been to Punjab and if you have you probably spent the whole time in the company of your non-jat family probably tarkhans in a town looking down on jats and taking the piss out of them and using the term Jatboot in every sentence. For someone who makes a great many constructive contributions to the debates on this forum, it's sad that you let your hatred of Jats come to the fore in many threads.

As Mithar rightly pointed out there are many Sikhs in the UK who have only come here in the last few years and the majority of who are single guys who are out of their villages/towns for the first time. I have yet to hear of them taking part in similar behaviour as these Pakis have done. It's easy to look for other factors instead of the elephant in the room which is the religion and the culture that religion has brought about. I remember watching a documentary where a MP from Yorkshire said that it was well known amongst the Paki community that these things happen but they shut their eyes to it and blame it on the immorality of the girls rather than the predatory nature of their young men. The reason I cite religion is that it is well known that in Islam it is up to the women to look after her honour and safety. Imams have been known to put forward the view that any woman who wears make up or short skirts is basically asking for it. Unless the woman is wearing a tent then she is fair game and to blame for anything that happens to her. I have yet to hear this kind oft thing in a Gurdwara or heard Rabbis or Priests say the same thing. Dalsingh you seem to have caste on your mind 24/7 which is unhealthy. There is no doubt that some spoilt son of a large landowner might take advantage of his position to abuse the daughter of a low caste labourer but equating these to the organised abuse that Pakis engage in is nonsense. I have yet to hear a bigger lie than that in defence of Pakis. He's known to defend Pakis but to claim that higher caste Sikhs are sexually abusing lower caste Sikhs in the UK shows to what lengths he goes to defend Pakis. I am sure the families of the girls are glad there were no singhs like Shaheediyan on the jury otherwise these scumbags might have got off scott free!

Manmohan Singh is a class A idiot and now we know his wife is the same.

Apparently they're going to stone some woman to death.. what was that you were saying about refined..?

Ishraqi your views now are in direct opposition to what you held only 3-5 years ago. You considered yourself a scholar then not brooking anyone challenging your views and rubbished anyone who thought differently to you. You now have the same attitude and criticise the one who you called Guru only a few years ago. So what does that tell us about you? Who knows in a few years times you will be coming on here praising L Ron Hubbard after having taken one of those free stress tests! As for Iran, everyone knows it's a shythole, even without the mickey mouse legal system it has chosen to implement and which will get more shyttier once the evil Joos drop a few bombs on it's nuclear reactors. Iranians remind of those stupid scousers waxing lyrical about what a great place Liverpool but they got out of the dump as soon as they could.

The way of the world at the moment. Everyone wants instant success and these farmers are no different to the tens of thousands of teenagers in the UK who try out for X factor or programmes like that.

I've noticed how a lot of people have been growing their own vegetables. It might have something to do with the downturn or maybe people getting ready for 2012 (the Mayan prediction thing not the olympics!) The uncle who I rent my house to does a lot of gardening and he's got me interested in it. I have to say he is a great gardener as he's made good use of the large garden even thought it still contains some of the hardcore I couldn't be bothered to get rid off when I had an extension built. I grew some cherry tomatoes over the summer and they came out really good, we didn't need to buy any tomatoes over the summer and even used them in the sabji and dals as well. But a few weeks ago all the plants died out due to the weather. I don't have any problems with cats or foxes but we did get birds attacking the plants. Does anyone have any suggestions about how to deal with them?

If you want to believe the liberal left wing propaganda that the Iraq war was all about oil then that's your lookout. Interesting enough if you bother to read the facts about what took place it was Saddam who did not make public the fact that he had had the WMDs destroyed in the 90s because he wanted to keep his population under fear. As for your second comment, you need to be consistent you are using the same event that may lead to the prosecution of Roy and Geelani as proof of how much freedom India allows!

You can't equate Bush with Sajjan Kumar, Bush went to war in the belief that a tyrant had weapons of mass destruction. The fact that the intelligence proved to be wrong does not make his a criminal like Sajjan Kumar and Tytler. My first point was that India has not changed, it will not allow anyone to ask for freedom by peaceful means. Whether Geelani is a fake is not the point, if he is two faced and playing the peacemaker whilst arming militants then by all means India has to right to prosecute him but if he is not then India has no right to prosecute him just because he wants freedom for the Kashmiris.

Shows how wrong Shinda Singh was about the 'new' India on another thread.

Interesting debate discussing the statement 'Islam is a religion of peace' It's quite long but well worth a viewing. http://www.intelligencesquared.com/events/islam-is-a-religion-of-peace

There is so much falsification and wishful thinking associated with the Ambedkar episode. Firstly Ambedkar was not the only leader of the lower castes in India although he was by far the best known. His support was localised to the area around Bombay and mostly restricted to the lower castes of his own Mahar caste. Secondly to blame his non-conversion to Sikhism on a Jat or Akali conspiracy to keep their power and position in the Sikh community is plainly nonsense. Thirdly the numbers sprouted about the potential followers of Ambedkar who would have converted to Sikhism has been grossly overestimated. When Ambedkar did convert to Buddhism in 1956 about 500,000 of his followers followed suit with another 3-4 million afterwards. If the Jats or Akalis were so concerned about lower castes becoming Sikhs, they why did they set up the Aligarh and Harpur missions in UP which eventually converted over 200,000 lower castes to Sikhism at the same time as they were supposedly preventing Ambedkar from becoming a Sikh?

I think the reason may have been that the Sikhs from west Punjav were dispersed and hence their leaders lost their support base. One thong I am sure of is that with Jhabbar their would have been none of the 'fast unto death' fiascos that Master Tara Singh indulged in late in his political career.

It is a shame that Kartar Singh Jhabbar did not make a bid to become a leader of the Akali Dal after partition and pretty much played a background role. He would have made a better leader than Master Tara Singh or later Sant Fateh Singh.

I came across this debate on the BBC yesterday morning which when the issue of 'Are we partly to blame for Islamic terrorism' came up I assumed that it would be usual hand wringing that one gets on the BBC which would blame everyone and everything for Islamic terrorism rather than Muslims or Islam. What was refreshing to see was that the odious Imam Masroor got a grilling from the other guests on the show. The Imam is usually flavour of the month with the BBC who practises taqiyya to hoodwink the infidels into thinking that he is moderate muslim. The look on his face at 53m 46s is a picture. http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00vf0x0/Sunday_Morning_Live_Episode_13/ the segment in question begins at about 42 minutes.

I actually find the Sikh channel debates quite informative although the sound sometimes leaves a lot to be desired. One of the positives about SC is that they are usually quite quick in getting a debate going about any major incident that concerns the Panth. When the Pakistani Sikhs were kidnapped by the Taliban, SC had a debate the next day featuring the sister of one of the kidnapped Sikhs as well as phone interviews with Sikh leaders from Pakistan. The Khalsa Aid debate was also very interesting. SC has done a good job of informing ordinary Sikhs about various issues which unless they had internet access or brought Punjabi newspapers they would not be aware off. The problem with Sikhs today is that there are many that want SC or any other channel to always adhere 100% to their own personal viewpoints which is well nigh impossible. If a Sikh is a chela of a particular Baba then unless SC features that Baba 24/7 on their programmes that Sikh will badmouth the SC. Same goes for AKJ, DDT. For a Singh Sabha supporter if even one Baba is featured then they will badmouth the channel as owned and operated by chelas of that Baba. I think before we criticise SC or any other Sikh channel for any of their programming decisions we need to look at how many divided views we have in the Panth. Wait for another few months and people will be badmouthing the new channels as well.