tonyhp32

The classic is still-; he has since made a come back fighting bums!

No offence but posting what could be a baseless rumour on an open discussion forum especially one which a lot of non-Sikhs interested in Sikhism utilise is the height of idiocy. Why not go the whole hog and contact the newspapers especially Kim Bolan just on the off chance that a victim might read the article! Neo would be better advised to contact the Sikhnet admin and work with them. Just an observation but our community seems to be more ready than most to post unsubstantiated allegations online than any other. Any bad personal experience someone has is automatically projected as the norm in the community. If some turbanned guy can't get a date, he then posts 'Sikh girls hate turbanned guys' on some forum! - mod edited -

The list of excuses for why Muslims become jihadis is very long. If it wasn't for the US in Iraq, then it's the US in Saudi. If not that, then US support for Israel... all the way back to the Crusades! There isn't much the west can do but showing a will to fight and not be cowed down by the jihadis is important. You are right that such images will create more jihadis but it will also make some would be jihadis shyt in their pants! They will be under no illusion that if they get captured they will get a nice cell, a copy of the koran and a western leach of a lawyer to represent their 'human rights'. With Muslims the lathi works more than any other technique. The proof is there from the times of Maharaja Ranjit Singh and the Misls. They didn't believe in winning hearts and minds. They believed in breaking the head of any Muslim who attempted subvert the Khalsa Raj. How many rebellions did the Khalsa Durbar face? Just one which was ironically supported by the British and which had as it's head an Ossama Bin Laden type figure who was a Wahabi who had been on the Haj. That revolt was short lived and confined to the jangli areas of NWFP.

You are missing the point. If corruption is an inherent Jat characteristic as you incessantly propagate then these institutes dominated by non-Jats would be corruption free.

This does bring back memories of all those photos of the late 80s and early 90s of Punjab Police and CRPF ba*tards with the dead bodies of Kharkoos. Hopefully the US authorities will take action against these soldiers after establishing the facts. As for the trousers being down, I remember reading somewhere that when a person is shot and down, they invariably attempt to locate the wound which leads them to take off their shirt or if lower down their trousers. Can't seem to find anything online to confirm that. Although in this case it could be an attempt to show that they had checked the body for concealed weapons.

Apparently it's God's law!

I saw the film a year ago. The funniest line was the convert saying that the day of judgement is coming as 'women are talking back to the men!'

I'll disregard the bukwas from Dalsingh. However, the hypocrisy of Cameron and Sarkozy is astounding. There was no call for a ceasefire when the rebels were storming cities and threatening to march on Tripoli and when in looked like Gaddafi would be hanging from the nearest lamppost. When it looks like Gaddafi has got the upper hand they immediately get the UN to declare a no fly zone.

It's funny how gup shup is treated as fact amongst some of the naive members here. I suppose some freshies told Dalsingh about the problem and now he's on his high horse campaigning against Raagis.

No offence Neo but can you substantiate the allegations or are you just believing rumours because they concern Raagis and you are prepared to believe the worst of Raagis? I am not doubting that some or all the allegations might be true but posting here when you have no real evidence is just giving the community a bad name without actually achieving anything. My suggestion to you would be to work with Gurmustak Singh of Sikhnet, as you said the elder 3HO Sikhs are aware of the problem. I am sure they have better means to contact and invite those who have been abused to come forward than a post on this site. As for Raagis I know that many apnay who want to get out of Punjab join these jathay. These jathay then get invited to do Kirtan aboard. Unfortunately it is a catch 22 situation. Unless the Gurdwara committees are reformed and the backhanders for getting visa applications endorsed ended then these kind of abuses will continue.

I remember going to one Sufi event in Punjab near Faridkot. The Sufi master who had kesh but trimmed dharri, let loose him hair and bending over with his hair flowing down to the floor he then swung his head around and around like he was in a trance. His chela was holding a hen over the head of some guy and muttering something. They serve some yellow coloured rice as parshad.

I have read that the azaan was banned in Sikh areas. This was from travelogues of British writers. In the commission of enquiry against Maharaja Gulab Singh of Kashmir it is mentioned that when the British went in Kashmir it was the first time that the Kashmiri Muslim could call the azaan for decades. The Christian missionaries who were banned from entering the Punjab prior to 1846 also write that when the British invaded the Muslims were glad as they thought that British rule would restore their rights to azaan as it was allowed in the areas of Punjab already under British rule (Ludhiana, Ferozpur, Ambala). Also the Qadiani leader Ahmed wrote an impassioned appeal for support from the Muslims to the British govt by citing the example that many Muslims are still alive who remember how the Sikhs had banned the azaan.

Unfortunately the problem is that many translators will try and put their own bias into their work. Be weary of translators that need to place words in brackets which are not in the original text.

It is interesting that on that particular discussion TSingh defended Bahadur's views based in part on the flawed translation referred to above If one calls for the destruction of something than does that person also need to criticise it?

The word Turk is used in the sense of a Muslim rather than as Mughal or even the Muslim ruling classes. This is also the way the word is used in var 41 of Bhai Gurdas I as well as in the varous Rehatnmamas. If the fight is solely the destruction of the political rule of the Mughal then why ask the deity to destroy the mosques, circumcision and the call to prayer. The reference to the call to prayer is interesting as in many areas under Sikh control, the azaan was banned.

There are no positive allusions to Islam in Uggardanti! (People) have forsaken the Veda, the scriptures and the eighteen puraans. (People) no longer perform the muezzin call, the islamic prayer, the circumcision and (read) the Quran. The use of brackets before the lines above changes the meaning of the verse 180 degrees. The translator has also translated the word 'Mitay' as forsaken when it means 'wipe out' or 'destroy'. How could the writer of Uggardanti say that people no longer perform the muezzin call, or pray in the Islamic way? There is no evidence that all of a sudden Muslims had stopped performing circumcision or prayer at that time. The use of the bracket would be justified if the lines referred to spiritual values and teachings rather than physical actions. The true import of the lines above as well as the rest of the Uggardanti is the destruction of Islam and popular Hinduism and it's replacement by the Khalsa. Virtually the same lines are used in verse 16 and 17 of var 41 of Bhai Gurdas.

I have to agree with Chatanga on this one. Either you are a Sufi and you follow the lifestyle or you are just someone making money as an entertainer. His claims to be following a tradition are patently false because if he was then he would be wandering about living off alms rather than living with his wife and getting paid to play concerts. Same as Chatanga, I never understood the lure of Sufi music which apart from half a dozen good songs is incredibly dull and sterile. To those who are fans of sufi music because it's the flavour of the month, I dare you to read the Kalams of the various sufis such as Waris Shah, Bulleh Shah and Shah Hussein and not fall asleep after five minutes. http://www.apnaorg.com/books/g-booklist.shtml

The writer of that piece is a different Khushwant Singh and not the old pervert we all know about!

It's by Karamjit Singh Aujla and it was in the Punjabi tribune a few years back.

It's interesting how Jugni has been Islamicised with the use of 'allah' and 'maula ali' etc. The original song was based on the Golden Jubilee (Jugni) of Queen Victoria in 1897. Arif Lohar added the Allah Bismillah bit in the 60s and East Punjab singers blinded followed this.

Dalsingh you are a sad, sad man. Anti-Jat paranoia and Anti-'imperialist whitey' jingoism, is that the sum total of all you have? I bet you got an orgasm when you read that story!

I had the Sohi group come around my house a few days ago. Told them I was voting for Gurpreet Singh's Sangat group based on the debate I had seen. I also mentioned that Sohi acted like a fool and they weren't impressed. My friend who's also a member is also voting for the Sangat group but he told me that he told Sohi group when they came around that he was voting for them because he says that in case they win he will need their help in getting his kids into the Khalsa school! Typical apne mentality! According to the Sangat group's literature there is another debate this evening on MATV SKY 793 between 7-9pm. Suryadev can have get the Paki satellite guy around at that time! I am again impressed by the Sangat group as their literature also contained a DVD of the debate on Sikh channel as well as a 10 min statement from the group.

I couldn't care less how you treat people who come to your house. I was pointing out how stupid you were and how your explanation didn't make sense. For that there is no charge and I do so entirely as a public service.

Suryadev, You might want to get your story straight before trying such a weak explanation. First you said-; Then when people got on your back about being such a stupid idiot. You came up with-; From Pakistani guests to a Pakistani satellite guy.. You would have been better off just admitting to your stupidity instead of trying to make a lame excuse. Have you ever considered a career as a Gurdwara Pardhan? Your kartoonan here are ideal. Be honest, you are one of those clowns who seek acceptance from others by debasing their own community. Shaheediyan, It depends whether you were watching the show to see what issues were or whether you were watching to see who would make themselves the biggest fool on the show. You are right there were some raised voices and talking over someone's answers but in all this was a debate that anyone who is a member of the Gurdwara should have watched. No way could the conduct of the show be characterised as 'gerry springer'. Sohi did get up at the end and wave a paper about but that would have just hurt his campaign. The five guests did raise their voices but I didn't see them act rowdy or disruptive. Even Garcha from Sohi's committee didn't act like Sohi. An open discussion like this should be a regular feature as nothing of this sort would be allowed to happen in a Gurdwara. The incumbent committee will always make sure that only it's views get aired. I have been to general body meeting where the current pardhan rambled on for an hour and then didn't allow the opposition to get a word in due to 'lack of time'! Here none of the committee held any special status and I think the presenter Ranjit Singh Rana conducted the whole debate in a fair manner especially when he allowed Gurpreet Singh to bring up the issue of having selection via parchi rather than the adversarial system of elections. I see your point of not having this debates televised but I think the negative impact of Suryadev's pakistani guests cum satellite guy watching this an making a joke of it is more than offset by the fact that Sikhs in the whole country as well as overseas would be more informed on the issues at the Gurdwaras. Never disregard the power of the media, Gadaffi is only on his last legs because his people have seen tv images of Egyptians and Tunisians bringing down their dictators. If any youth who watched the debate were to become more active in the community and resolve to clear the Gurdwaras off the old timers then the debate would have been more than worthwhile. Dalsingh you obviously never watched the programme and doubt you even read my post. I wouldn't class calling a debate on s serious issue such as who run the biggest Gurdwara in Europe as 'gerry springer' as constructive criticism. Although your point would have been well made had Shaheediyan's second post been his first starting post of this thread.

That's a very good point, unfortunately the ones who shout the loudest about discrimination on this forum don't have a clue about the reality in the Punjab villages. They just think Jat = bad and chamar = good. Why try and understand the complexities of the situation when you can just play your anti-Jat dafli and have a few like minded chelay dance to your tune?