tonyhp32

Unfortunately the translation of the word Yaara as 'beloved of God' appears on the Sikhi to the max site and that is what has caused this confusion. Originally Bahadur translated it as 'beloved or friend' but later he seems to have used the inaccurate translation from Sikh to the max. The term Char Yaar or the four friends in reference to the four caliphs was quite popular in the Punjab of Bhai Gurdas's time. As some have also said it is possible that it refers to the third person ie the reader, similar to the Babarvani verse, Jaisi mai avai Khasam ki Bani taisri kari Gian veh LALO. The whole import and context of the Vaar 1 with regard to Mohammed is negative. His birth (creation) is seen as starting a period of religious strife and the comencement of maaran Gau Gareeb ie killing of the poor and the 'sacred' cow, a term used to denote unacceptable and extreme violence. Although Amardeep is correct that the Kaum of Mohammed got spilt into 72 sects many years after Mohammed's death, the fact remains that the verses do not state that the events that happened after Mohammed were against his teachings. The line ਰੋਜੇ ਈਦ ਨਿਮਾਜਿ ਕਰਿ ਕਰਮੀ ਬੰਦਿ ਕੀਆ ਸੰਸਾਰਾ । could be an illusion to the submission (bandi) of the world to Islam. No mention is made of Mohammed having made any positive contribution quite contary to the way Muslims mention Mohammed as having be the 'ideal' human being.

I couldn't disagree more. Their status in Islam is similar to the Sant Nirankaris are to Sikhism. Their modus operandi is to pretend to be interested in the beliefs of non-Muslims but their agenda is to find out how knowledgable that person is in their own religion. If the person has a good grounding and is able to defend their religion to the questioning of the Ahmedi then they give up but if the person is not knowldegable then the Ahmedi will start to question more and more. He/She will also introduce another few of their Ahmedi friends into the debate as well as giving their propaganda books. I have seen this many times online and although mainstream Muslims do this nowadays as well but this type of dawa was invented by the Ahmedis. Like the Sant Nirankaris they also have a line of leader who claim to be divinely inspired. Their leader before the present one was a bit of a joker whose forte seems to have been telling jokes to the 'sisters'. The wally even told a Sikh joke. Maybe if he wasn't joking around with his women followers he might have taken steps to protect his followers in Pakistan.

I doubt that the Bro really feels like that about Pakistan. Unfortunately minorities have to appear more patriotic than the majority in order to live a quiet life in Muslim countries.

The NPR is being done for the first time-; http://censusindia.gov.in/2011-FAQ/FAQ-Public.html#B

You probably had the Census Houselisting and National Population register form filled in. The enumeration where the religion question is asked usually takes place over a few days in March or April 2011. Beware the NPR is used to identify you and possibly lead to an ID card scheme. The census data cannot be used by the govt for ID purposes.

No better feeling than seeing the Pakistanis think they had the game in the bag and then losing to an amazing last over!

Another lying Musalmaan, there's a surprise! As for the subject of the thread, Sharia is a mickey mouse legal system which might work if everyone following it lived in the 7th century instead of the 21st century and drank camel urine instead of red bull.

Doesn't matter what religion you are you deserve everything you get if you mess with someone's wife! That Akram guy does have a nerve claiming he wanted people to know what he had been through, what about the woman's husband and brother and what they must have been through to learn of the woman's adultery? I doubt he will be on facebook any time soon trying to pull any more women! I bet the woman's body will be found in some ditch somewhere in Pakistan soon.

I agree with Dalsingh101, the Punjabi/Jat type response is probably what is missing in most of these cases. If the predatory Musla knew that the girl had brothers/cousin brothers who would kick his arse then he wouldn't have made the girl a target. We can go on about how a girl might be attracted by a Musla not drinking but a musla knowing that his life might be at risk if he messes with a Sikh girl would put an end to over 50% of these cases. Our friend is quick to bring out a case when some anti-Musla Sikhs' sister ran off with a Musla but how many sisters of Sikhs who thought Muslay are great people ran off with Muslay? Another problem is the Muslaphile Sikhs who whenever Muslims are criticised, they leap to their defence and bring out the same rehash of 'not all muslay are like that' 'my muslay friends aren't like that' 'my mate mohammed said islam is a religion of peace' blah blah blah. These Muslaphiles forget that our ancestors survived only because they knew what the musla mindset is like. Some might want to restrict these common sense notions of what a Musla is like to be time specific but they are there for all time.

The media is just out there trying to get a story. After the idiots attacked the Sikh Lehar Gurdwara, the media saw a story and now any small event will be blown out of all proportion. The idiots who started all this now have to consider how their actions and lack of foresight have made Sikhs targets of the media. It's funny how the protests against Kamal Nath were just getting some media attention and the action of these fools managed to subvert that story. Now what will any gora think if faced with a story of Sikhs protesting against the Indian government suppression of the Sikhs and on the other hand he sees Sikhs attack other Sikhs with 'symbols of peace'? I hope the anti-Darshan Singh people will rethink their strategy. For the next few weeks the enemies of the Sikhs like Dosanjh and Hayre will use the media to make Sikhs look like terrorists and intolerant people. The media will lap it all up and now any small act even someone setting up a facebook page threatening a Desh Bigot like Dosanjh will be blown out of all proportion.

I think what Dalsingh101 is questioning is why were all the Misldars Jats or mainly Jats and how is it that no Mazhabi leader was able to set up his own rule similar to the way the other Misls did. One can disregard the same question for chamars as they did not take any great part in the Sikh struggle and only became Sikhs during the rule of Maharaja Ranjit Singh. The Mazhabis did take part in the Sikh struggle and so the question does have some merit. The main reason given in the history books is that the Mazhabis were associated with the Shaheedan Misl which did not take any territory and protected the Gurdwaras.

Nope don't have any duggus as relatives so please enlighten me.

Dalsingh101 So are Tarkhans with their seperate 'Ramgarhia' Gurdwaras and so are Chamars with their 'gurus' and removal of Guru Granth Sahib. There are idiots in every caste. From foolish Jats thinking that without them Sikhi couldn't have survived to Mazabhis claiming that they would have had the same power as Jats if their leader hadn't been murdered. Both theories are based more on claims of caste superiority and prowess rather than history. Look at the facts as outlined in my previous post. The event as propogated by Dalit writers is full of holes.

This story was mainly perpetuated by a writer (i forget his name) in the magazine Des Punjab in the late 90s. The story fails on many levels. Firstly Charat Singh was a Misldar in the Gujranwala area whilst Ala Singh was Raja of Patiala. Charhat Singh never had any territory beyond the Beas and Ala Singh had no territory north of the Satluj. As it seems that the main reason for doing away with Bir Singh seems to be the latter's opposition to Misladar taking personal power, Ala Singh would never have been bothered about anyones opposition to his rule. He used the Khalsa when it suited him and he betrayed them when it was in his interests to do so. The names of Ala Singh and Charta Singh seem to have been chosen so as to give a tinge of a conspiracy at a very high level. If Charhat Singh and Ala Singh were busy killing Bir Singh's followers in the Durbar Sahib what were the other Misldars doing? Given that there was a great deal of mutual jealousy between Misldars, the enemies of both Charhat Singh and Ala Singh would have used the event especially of Sikhs murdering Sikhs in Durbar Sahib as a means to unseat them. Bir Singh could never have been in Peshawar at that time as it was under Afghan control although I do believe that a Misldar called Milkha Singh was active and quite successful against the Muslim tribes around Rawalpindi. It seems like a made up story to defame 'dem evil jats'

India beat Pakistan 58 - 24 in the final of the Kabaddi World Cup 2010. In essence it was more like East Punjab beating West Punjab. There was an interview of the Pakistani captain in one of the videos and his every third word was 'inshallah' I'm all for respecting peoples' beliefs but it won't be long before they start saying things like 'I'm going for a dump inshallah'! Anyway enjoy the videos. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96ZzVeCgUVY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtCJAZKkLYI&feature=channel

Dalsingh, We were lucky in the UK with the Behzti incident as some parts of the media as well as the government didn't go out of their way to demonise Sikhs. That's not to say that the luvvies didn't try their best. Behzti was pre-7/7 and I think the media and general public are much more likely to give us a hard time if something similar happened now. Also the media was aware that it was pretty much a Bhatti vs rest of the Sikhs affair but with Darshan Singh it will be portrayed as a Sikh civil war especially as DS has a support base however small. Bhatti could never be portrayed as having Sikh support for her drama. I think it's time for the pro-DS people to rethink their strategy. If DS is coming to a 'private' Gurdwara then start a campaign to inform the sangat what kind of institution it is. Let the sangat vote with their feet. If a radio or satellite channel supports him then do the same with that station. Westerners have no interest in whether Dasam Granth is Gurbani or not. If you take away the Sikh audience then what has DS or any other person like has got? I know there have been toing and froing similar to Niddar's so-called Hadh Torh challenges but does anyone know whether DS has been challenged to a debate and whether he is shying away from one. The easiest way to take away his thunder is to show that he is unwilling to debate or even defeat him in a debate.

Dalsingh has it about right. A massive own goal by the idiots that thought they could use violence to stop someone from saying what he wanted. Muslims have had to learn it the hard way but in the west you can't go around going hyper each time something that you don't want to hear gets aired. The Pro-DG people have to understand this but I doubt they will. It seems that everytime Ragi appears there is an incident when fools start to get violent or even by their presence and lack of media savvy get themselves cornered into a violent incident then Sikhs suffer. Losers then come on forums to post 'how we stopped Darshan Lal' fanning the incident even more. I have no idea whether Ragi is right or wrong but it seems his opponents by their actions are giving his views more publicity. By trying to contact the media and stating that he is excommunicated by Akal Takht is the same as making his a Galileo type figure which the liberal media will lap up. The best thing to do is to either ignore him or challenge him to a debate within the community. Igoring him takes away the oxygen of publicity that characters like him need. Debating him gives his view publicity but if the pro-DG people are confident of their views then it allows the common Sikhs to know facts and make a decision.

Looks like these 'soormey' have just helped to blacken the name of the Sikh community even further. http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/crime/article/789860--prominent-sikh-lawyer-injured-in-brawl-outside-temple

Talk about sterotyping. How is it that you are quick to defend Muslims when someone stereotypes them but like a true hypocrite you have written the above when you have no clue what the truth of the allegations against these guys are. I suppose Jews are not the only ones to have self haters in their ranks.

He did a programme on Punjab as well. I remember him cooking something in the grounds of Khalsa college.

It's not really any of ours business whether she marries a Pakistani or Indian Muslim. The fact that they will be based in Dubai is interesting as I don't think she could play tennis in Pakistan given the amount of fanaticism there is there. Even some Indian mullahs had given fatwas against her playing in a skirt. It would be interesting to see whether the guy who apologised to Muslims around the world for losing to India in the Twenty20 in 2007 is moderate enough to keep his word and allow his wife to keep playing tennis. My guess is that she'll either divorce him in year or stop playing tennis and start wearing a niqab.

This Dasam granth debate is getting boring. An outsider would think that Sikhs have no pressing issues other than this. The authenticity or otherwise isn't going to be settled here on this forum. It's one of those issues best kept on hold until there is a panth pravanit Jathedar of Akal Takht and not the Badal chumcha we have at present. Also this thread will just give Singh2 another opportunity to sound off about Darshan Singh Ragi, Spokesman, Gurtej Singh IAS, Kala Afghana etc etc

If gardari equals ucha sucha jeevan for Nihangs then Badal would be an ideal candidate for Jathedar of Budha Dal! Then all the Nihang factions can unite and he can lead them to greater ignominy.

HSD, I agree with most of the views above but your explanation of the reason for the Khalsa injunction not to have relations with Muslim women does not appear to be correct. The injunction came about in 1699 and not during the Misl period. In 1699 the Sikhs had fought with Muslims as well as Hindu Rajas but the opportunity to capture Muslim enemy women would not have be there. Such opportunities only come about during a general conflagration such as the period during the time of Banda Singh Bahadur to the Misls and during partition. Women of all communities were kept in seclusion and Muslims were not known to take their women with them in battle. The only opportunity for a Singh to have relations with a Muslim woman would be-; 1. If the Muslim woman was a prostitute. Pre-1947 the women of the Kanjar caste who provided most of the prostitutes and dancing girls were Muslim. So a Singh having relations with a Muslim woman of that caste would naturally be doing something which went against Sikh teachings ie treating women other than one's wife as mothers and sisters. 2. In rural areas where the population was mixed, then there might be an opportunity for a Singh to have relations with a Muslim woman without the knowledge of her family. In such a case the Singh would as per no.1 above be going against Sikh teachings. The sexual act would then lead him either to elope with the woman and hence disturb communal relations as well as put the Sikh community under the microscope and bring disgrace to them. Their only option even after eloping, in light of the Mughal state's law that a non-Muslim cannot marry a Muslim woman would have been for the Singh to convert. 3. It is well known that Muslims have always used their women to obtain converts from other religions. The Muslim community is not averse to their women taking part in affairs as long as that it ends in marriage and conversion to Islam by the non-Muslim man. This might appear a strong statement but just a few months ago the brother of George Osborne, the Conservatiove party shadow Chancellor married and converted after having had an affair with a Bangladeshi Muslim woman. Now the usual notion is that Muslims are very conservative (no pun intended)and go ape when their women have affairs and yet her family provided her with a lavish wedding and invited guests from their community to the wedding. So in a similar situation the injunction is there to provide that no Singh falls into the temptation offered by Muslim women which inevitably leads to conversion. No doubt some dhimmis here will dispute what I wrote but if you look at the cases of so-called honour killings involving Muslim women, it is either the case that they have been having affairs with Muslim men who would be deemed unsuitable as husbands by their families, or where the male has been a non-Muslim who has refused to convert. In the former there is no advantage to the affair as the man is already a Muslim and in the latter the male refuses to convert hence again no advantage to Islam of the affair. 4. There is a sakhi, I think in Sewa Das's work in which the sangat bring a Sikh before the Guru who had been captured by the Muslims and been forcibly cicumcised by them. The sangat said that he had been made into a Muslim. Guruji asked what the Muslims had done to make him a Muslim. The Sangat said that they had forcibly circumcised him, then they said they cut his hair and finally they fed him halal. To each of these Guruji said that does not make a Sikh into a Muslim. The sangat then asked then what makes a Sikh into a Muslim. Guruji said that it is having relations with a Muslim woman. In the light of the facts above especially nos 2 and 3 the prohibition against relations with a Muslim woman makes sense.

Let's be honest here. Does any of this matter? Santa Singh made sure that the Budha Dal went from being an irrelevance before 1984 to lost in oblivion after 1984. It may be a big deal for the few kids in the west and Nihangs in India but apart from these few thousands, the matter of who holds the Jathedari of Budha Dal is of no relevance to the rest of the Sikh community.