tonyhp32

It's a myth that Islamic terrorism is caused by poverty and that if the west leaves the Islamic countries alone that the movements will subside. They might subside for a decade or so while the Islamaniacs start to fight their own governments but once they capture one state then it would be a domino effect as they capture other muslim states. Once they have their khalifah then the non-Muslim would would face the same fate as faced by the Persian and Byzantine empires as well as Europe and India. They would be faced by an ultimatum to convert or submit to being tributaries sending yearly tribute to the khalifah. Failing either then the non-Muslim states will face invasions of their territory with the added danger that they have muslim citizens acting as fifth columnists for the khalifah.

You have to applaud the American justice system that they can give someone a life sentence which actually means life. In the UK they would have sentenced him to 10 years and he would have been out in five!

It's always been the Muslim mentality to show the supposedly supremacy of their religion over all other hence the not giving and inch but taking a mile! Muslims have always built mosques over the ruins of Mandirs, Temples and Churches. They built the Al Aqsa mosque and invented the story of Mohammed riding a horse to the seven heavens from there to solidify their claim. They demolished the Visigothic church in Cordoba and built the grand mosque there which was then converted into a cathedral again when the Spanish kicked out the Muslims. The muslim immigrants in Spain now want the site back! The same is the case of the Hagia Sophia which was once the grandest building in Europe but was converted into a Mosque by the Turks. This is the reason that there is so much hostility to the Muslims building a mosque at ground zero in New York.

The Mosque was attacked after the Kar Sewaks were informed that the police would not take any action against them. If they thought they might face police lathis and bullets you can bet your life they wouldn't have attacked the Mosque.

No doubt the Hindu leaders were told about the decision beforehand hence their appeals for calm when it would have been clear that they would never had made the appeals had they had no idea about the verdict and an unfavourable one to the Hindus would have been the end of most of their political careers.

The judgement was political and based on the needs to try and keep both sides happy because the govt didn't want violence to mar the CWG. The precedent for this case the Shahidganj Gurdwara of the 1930s which was brought against the SGPC by the Muslims to take possession of the site where executions of Sikhs had taken place during the mid 1700s. The place was in the possession of Sikhs and functioning as a Gurdwara. The Muslims lost the case in all the courts that they appealed to, all the way upto the Privy council. The verdicts held that as the Sikhs had been in undisputed possession for more than 12 years then they would the the legal title holders under the adverse possession rules. The Sikhs had held the site from the 1760s until 1936 when the dispute took place. Under the Shahidganj precedent the Ayodhya site should have all gone to the Muslims.

That sounds highly unlikey as women have not been allowed to do Kirtan at Durbar Sahib. The rehat maryada says only a Sikh should be able to do Kirtan in a Gurdwara. There is a reason for this, how can someone who believes in Islam be able to do parchar of Sikhi? Kirtan is a form of parchar and not a talent contest reliant on whose voice is the sweetest. Unfortunately Sikhs today run after novelty, apparently a Muslim girl singing Kirtan brings them closer to Sikhi than a Sikh singing Kirtan! Would a Mosque allow a Sikh to give a discourse on the Quran? of of the Bible in the church etc. Only Sikhs are lax and lazy when it comes to this regard.

There seems to a lot of reliance on Sakhis rather than on Gurbani. When Gurbani states something so clearly then why place any worth on Sakhis which goes against this? Ok so let's look at this rationally. So if my ancestors are in this place of which you do not know the name and I don't conduct a Shraad which you claim they need once a year for their 'sustenance' then do they DIE?

After cheating Pakistanis and a tour best forgotten, the Ashes are something to look forward this November 'cos Monty;s back in the England squad!! http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/cricket/article-1314493/Monty-Panesar-handed-England-Ashes-recall-selectors-choose-Chris-Tremlett-bold-bowling-line-up.html Now doubt Dalsingh101 will be grumbling about an apnay playing for a white man's team!

Shraad and Jathera are part and parcel of a primative belief system that believes that the dead ancestors can cause bad luck or can become malevolent towards their living descendents. It is not a JB wrote to do with blessings or goodwill from the action of making the offerings. If the dead can cause suffering for the living thab do the dead not have a power possiblt apart from God. If according to the Hardwar sakhi the offering of water cannot reach the dead ancestors then how does the offering of food get there? Just for Jvaalasingh here is some advice from Bhagat Kabirji

This kind of koorh parchar that the website has about Shraad is nothing new, it was tried in the 1900s and it failed miserably and that is why Sikhs who are not even well versed in Sikhi find this Shraad thing weird and a hangover from Hinduism. Gurbani is very clear about Shraad but people who have an agenda will always try and bend it to suit their own beliefs. It seems to these people books like Nanak Parkash are more authorative than the Guru Granth Sahib! This is what every Sikh should be able to do, go to the Guru rather than rely on people like the one whose katha you had. I am sure Laalsingh read the shabad otherwise why would he paste, he would have wanted to know whether the shabad agreed with his views or with yours. Laalsingh relied on the Guru and not some Baba who thinks that food that we are served at a certain time of the year goes to feed our ancestors. Tell me my friend, anyone living today probably have thousands of ancestors, does the food just go to a certain number or to all their ancestors? It is stange that a Sikh would believe such koorh parchar about food reaching their ancestors. Ask any schoolkid who has read the Sakhi of Haridwar and he would be able to refute the leaned Baba.

I think incompetence should have won!

I wish the games are a complete disaster and India is forced to cancel them or none of the anglo countries send their athletes. India deserves to have it's nose rubbed in the mud for thinking that a third world country could organise an event of such prestige. Hopefully it will put an end to all those 'India/ns are the best in the world' or '99% of scientists at Nasa are Indians'emails. They really have got so much beizzati over this shambles. Any separatist organisation needs to just let a few bombs off in Delhi and the whole event will die a well deserved death! And to think the Indian idiots were promising world class facilities which would surpass the Beijing Olympics!! And there's still the Ayodhya verdict out on Friday!

I came across this photo exhibition, the photos and accounts of the Sikhs of how they came to Ireland and what their experiences have been are very interesting. http://www.fomacs.org/projects/photography/A-Sikh-Face-In-Ireland

I've always understood it to mean the perception of the self as being seperate from God as well as from the surroundings. When you think of yourself as seperate then that is when the ego comes into play and with it the self becomes prey to the five thiefs of Lobh, Moh, Kaam, Krodh, Ahankaar.

This does fly in the face of all those Muslims the media put on the TV and Radio who claim Ramadan is a time.' of reflection, self-discipline, self-restraint and generosity. Looks like some Muslims in Algeria never got the memo! Anyway it does seem odd that crimes increase and people are more ruder than normal when one would accept crime to decrease in a 'holy' month!

Dalsingh101 Although you have some valid points yet your points are then lost when you continue to accuse goray of still having imperial ambitions and being inherently racist. Do you think the majority of the goray, living off benefits, committing anti-social behaviour and living in many of the sink estates in this country really care for bringing back the British Empire? As for the middle classes, millions turned out and joined hands with Islamists who incidently would not have thought twice about cutting off their heads, protesting against the Iraq invasion. Incidently instead of being imperialists even those arch racists the BNP want the troops out of Afghanistan. So at least you have something in common with the BNP! The EDL are not so naive to think that they can force Muslims to prove their loyalty by cheering on the returning troops, all they wanted was that Muslims should not be accusing them of being 'child killers' and 'rapists'. No doubt you will bring some case where iraqi kids might have died or even rape but by and large the British army was professional in it's role in these two countries. I remember debating this issue on another forum with a left wing liberal Sikh who made statements such as 'the british army is raping and pillaging in Iraq' You don't have to be a repressed minority to think that your culture is in danger. Gora culture is not all about drinking, sha**ing and brawling. Goray, even the middle class are feeling that their culture of freedom of speech, freedom of expression, women's rights and even gay rights is in danger from Islam.

Yes, the events were sad and unfortunate but the Muslim attitude was that they could take the whole of Punjab and even Delhi and resurrect the Mughal empire. In West Punjab there were no attacks on Muslims apart from self defence in areas where non-Muslims were a majority such as Nili Bar and Nankana Sahib tract. The same cannot be said of Muslims in non-Muslim majority areas. Many Sikhs and Hindus were killed in Amritsar before the Jathas got involved. When they were cut up by the Jathas, these same Muslims then acted as if they were innocent victims and demanded protection from the military. In the Bet area of Jagraon tehsil the Muslims who were in a majority attacked Sikhs going through their area. If the Jathas hadn't acted the likelihood is that like you said the Sikhs would have been a minority in East Punjab with agressive Muslims treating them like the Kashmiris treat the Pandits. The Jathas were mainly demobbed soldiers who had gained battle experience during the 2nd world war. There have also been studies done which state that soldiers of the state armies of the Sikh states in civilian dress were dispatched into East Punjab to clear the area of Muslims.

Ok so what exactly is the difference between say the EDL smashing up some Paki shops in Bradford and the SP going to Chalvey and re-enacting the 'Road to Basra' with smashed up Toyotas and Nissans? How should goray act to the Musla threat? What actions by goray would you consider legitimate in this issue rather than a manifestation of their Anglo ways? Are Goray inherently racist so any anti-Musla action by them should be seen as gradually being converted into an anti-Sikh action when the time is right? Lots of questions but what I am getting at is that do you see all resistence to Musla influence by the goray as basically driven by racism rather than by a desire to also protect their own and their culture? The EDL may be racist but they are a manifestation of the gora desire to preserve their culture. The politicians have failed the goras and they now jump into whatever organisation they think is working to save their culture. I hope you haven't cast me as one of the puppos. I've lived through the late 70s in this country and I was in Southall when the NF came to visit in '79. The received wisdom amongst apnay was that 99% of all goray were racists. the 1% were the Socialist Workers types who would stand with the Asians in fighting against the racist goray. All Asians were equal and stood be united. Now jump a decade on and it was the Muslims that brought their religion into the picture. They were the first to break away from the Asian label and ironically cling to it when some their is something negative in their community and they want to disguise it by taking the asian label. What I believe is that not all goray are racists. Not even the majority but all Muslims are anti-Kafirs. Now you might think that Arabs aren't as bad as Pakis or Turks have no issue with Sikhs but if there were sizable minorities of Sikhs in these areas then there would be an issue. No all Arabs are extremists as are not all Turks but there is a latent hatred of Non-Muslims which will ignite at any time against Kafirs. The answer to all this is to see the situation that is developing and make sure that Sikhs are ready in case of a flare up. This is why Gurdwaras should be setting up martial arts classes for the Sikh youth. You made a snide remark about the way my ancestors loyally served the British but by serving the British they were able to maintain their own martial traditions as well as gain knowledge of modern weaponry and tactics. How would the Sikhs have fared in responding to the Muslay in 1947 had there not been lakhs of Sikhs trained in the British Indian army and not having had battle experience in the second world war? It was due to these demobilised soldiers that Sikhs were able to clear East Punjab of Muslims and create space for the refugees from West Punjab. This is why the Sikh regiment in the British Army was such a good idea. No doubt you would gave scoffed at Singhs going fight the 'white man's wars' but the training of these Singhs would have kept us in good stead in any future flare up.

I'm sure you'll be able to find a youtube video of a Paki getting bashed by a gora during the march that is unless youtube hasn't removed it due to 'islamophobia'! Whatever the yobbishness of the EDL they are reacting to the actions of Muslay who abused the returning soldiers in Luton. They might be going to far when marching in Musla areas like Bradford and their lack of preparation to take on the baying muslay shows they are just a knee jerk reaction rather than a carefully thought out plan. I think your sympathy to the muslay here is more to do with your previous experience of racism from the police and goray and the events of the 70s and 80s such as Southall riots and the newham 7 and 8. The facts are that the southall protesters never went and smashed down their town and burn businesses like the bradford rioters did. It's interesting that you didn't choose to comment on the fact that Sikh and Hindu businesses were attacked by these rioters. Is that protecting your community? Well, maybe by musla beliefs they were protecting their community by burning kafir businesses. You views seem to be coloured by your experiences of the 70s and 80s but your are still viewing the acts of Muslims of today when they are in an aggressive phase with the Muslims of the 70s and 80s who as usual to their mentality kept a low profile due to their being then a very small minority.

Chumlah of Muslay is the fault or our own and not their fault. So I wasn't criticising the Muslay, being aghirtghan is part of the DNA of a Muslim. Of course this is the fault of apnay, when you chumlah Muslay. As for the family of the girl, it is their fault that they didn't teach her any better and it is they who will suffer the loss of their honour. Now what is my suggestions to stop this happening. For one, we should we strong enough to teach our kids the truth about what Muslims and Islam is like. No doubt this will give the Islamophiles here a heart attack, but if you look historically how were we able to stop these things happening in the past. There was the restricted freedom given to women and then there was the non-PC attitude about Muslims. Ask anyone over 50 and they will tell you what Muslims and Islam is like. Now compare this with kids in nappies who think Islam is 'peeesse' just because they have some Muslim friend who tells them Islamic BS. Restricting the freedom won't work so giving them the truth about Islam is the next step.

Stop lionising rioters and thugs. The courts handed out sentences and some were later reduced by the court of appeal. What do you expect when thugs take the opportunity of a Paki getting stabbed outside a club and then use that to commit their usual mayhem by burning down legitimate businesses like car showrooms? What do you think of these thugs parking burning cars outside the exits of the working men's club and then setting it on fire? Isn't that arson at best or attempted murder at worst? What would you have had the judiciary do? Hand out community service order? I for one am glad the judiciary decided to pass sentences appropriate to the crimes. I suggest you stop reading the Guardian or the Socialist Worker and educate yourself that these rioters weren't innocent victims but criminals. I don't say every Muslim should be in Gitmo, I agreed with that EDL guy who was referring to a baying mob of Muslims.

I don't rate the Musla's chances and the girl's family always have the Musla's family to target before they get to him. Good hunting I say. Is this connected in anyway with apnay helping to build mosques all over the place? There was one built recently in Ajitwal near Moga. That's what you get when you chumlah Muslay.

Mona. which today refers to a Sikh who has cut his hair is probably the word term to use for Diwan Chandu Lal. He was a Sehajdhari Sikh whose background was of a Khatri from Dera Baba Nanak area. It is interesting that from the 16th to the late 18th century, Sehajdhari Sikhism was the national religion of most Khatris and Aroras outside of Punjab.

The Haryanvi Jaat 'Aya Ram, Gaya Ram' political culture is much more corrupt than anything the Sikh Jats have ever come up with. Jaats are also more caste minded than Sikh jats. I remember having a discussion with a well read Hindu Jaat from Hissar region in the mid 90s who used to study at SOAS in London. His views were that the Kingdom of Maharaja Ranjit Singh was a Jat state and he constantly referred to the Durbar Army as a Jat army. He hated the Rajputs, who in his area had always been majority Hindu and he had some dream of downgrading and 'punishing' ( his words) the Rajputs with the help of the Sikh Jats of Punjab. I had a good debate with his especially since his views of Sikhism was that it was a Hindu sect etc. He might be typical of an educated Hindu Jaat or he could be their version of Mr Rajinder Singh Nijjar but he had some pretty extreme views when it came to caste. With regard to Muslim Jats they had always been foreshadowed by the Rajputs and hence their dislike to being referred to as Jats and tendency to want be known as Rajputs. One of the Jat gotras to achieve some political independence during the Misl days were the Chathas of Gujranwala and Gujrat who were then pretty much decimated and evicted from their lands by the Sukkarchakkias. Muslim Jats and Rajputs are a large percentage of the population and so can command a lot of power both are still lower than the Syeds and Pathans. If they were on top of a notional West Punjab caste heirarchy then there's no doubt they would also want to proudly claim to be Jats.