HSD

On 2/6/2023 at 5:33 PM, dalsingh101 said:

I think the most perceptive thing you've said in this post is that it comes across as a pseudoscience. That's because it is. All this is is attempts to quantify and conceptualise things that are probably impossible to empirically measure (which they try to do to get some respectability for the field). And even among psychologists, conceptualising what one influential framework tries to expound isn't straightforward and confusion amongst themselves isn't unusual. Just see it as attempts to try and understand complex behaviour and frame it. It's not an exact science at all. At best it helps us frame discussions rather than fully deconstruct the humans it studies. The hysteria you talk about is often referred to as 'narcissistic rage', the incitement is usually done to provoke emotional reactions that are fed off, maligning is referred to as 'smear campaigns' which you seem to accurately describe towards the end of the above paragraph. When they do the smear campaigns it frequently involves projection - that's why the target will be accused and painted as doing the very thing the narc does themselves. The low level narc actually believes in their lies - and do mental acrobatics that make them genuinely feel like the victim and the other the villain, whilst higher functioning ones know exactly what they are doing in terms of manipulating an empathetic person. Again, because certain traits are manifest in individuals at different levels, we are really talking about more of a kaleidoscope of umpteen 'scales'. So these things can't really be solidly conceptualised. But nevertheless, they can provide useful bases to discuss things, so anyone spouting off the 'latest' findings isn't impressive, because these things frequently change when some perceptive person(s) finds an element missed out previously. This is something anyone who is trying to make sense of a bunch of related theories needs to grasp, even if different people use different names for them. 

 

Carrying on from above, if you think these things are frequently not overlapping, or even referring to the same or very similar phenomena you're mistaken. Psychologists frequently use new names for similar phenomena in their published papers to seem more original.

The later manifestations of suppressing or compartmentalising doesn't just come out as self harm, that's one of many ways it can manifest.  

 

T

No, it's one recognised way in which abuse can later manifest. One of many. It's not the only way and not everyone responds to it in this way, but clearly some do. That's not to excuse or justify their later actions - it's just trying to grasp some potential root causes. The norm in psychology these days is to grasp the interaction between biology and environment, and it's generally thought that having genetic dispositions that are triggered through events/trauma exacerbate this type of stuff. 

Learnt behaviour is also a recognised thing, and it would be interesting to find out how the people you mention were brought up. But hell, in this 'information age' many people learn their behaviour from non-physically present models via the web. So any parenting can be overridden by this. Even an idiot knows this.    

And I wouldn't discount the possibility that brain scans could help shed light on the possibility that some of the behaviour under discussion stems from dysfunctional functioning of areas of the perpetrators brain.   Yes, some people are born this way, but it may be that some brains aren't strong enough to cope with what they experience as children which causes a permanent  'short-circuit' of certain areas.   

 

Okay, I'm responding to you para by para, judging by what I've read above we agree on this (see my previous para). Again, I say that a lot of factors are at play here. Referential models, genetic predispositions, environmental factors, upbringing. There does seem to be an individualised random aspect in many cases that can't really be easily explained. But the idea that some may just be born without a conscience (hence why one type responds differently to abuse in later life than another) is an important one. 

Look when I make these comparisons, it's to try and explore this topic, not to write an academic paper......Autistic people are on a spectrum that is seriously diverse, for you to simplify it like you have doesn't show much of an understanding of this. It's not something society or science really understands too well now, so you going on like you know don't do you any favours. 

You talk about the later emergence of the concept of a sadist on top of the dark triad. That perfect illustrates what I said earlier about the field being in constant flux like this. It should have probably been obvious that the narc, psycho, sociopath is a sadist in that they gain pleasure from other people's pain (be it physical or emotional or both). But earlier attempts to understand overlooked this somehow. Sadism may not necessarily work in just the purely mental/psychological way you have described. For all we know, the sadist is getting their 'jollies' from the terror they can physically see and hear from their victim. It's like a strange exchange of energy where fear, terror, dread, hopelessness fuels and stimulates the dysfunctional people. Maybe we'll never get to understand it fully - who the f**k knows what's really going on in these twisted people's heads.    The reason I think it is important for us to understand these things as a quom is because we seem to keep experiencing negative interactions with the sickos from other cultures, whether this is at a micro level like grooming or at a macro level with some higher functioning, postioned, imperialistic racist narc trying to manipulate our whole panth in the direction they want. It's interesting to note that whole societies/cultures can seem to resolve around this in relations to outsiders to themselves, and although our people aren't immune to it, it's almost like Sikhi purposefully forms a weaponised,  opposing force to this way of living/thinking on earth.  

 

Well, my point was that exposure to brutal environments as a behaviour modifying deterrent - didn't work for many, but made them even more hardened and obdurate.  

 

Anyway, stop coming off as a know it all, it's an interesting discussion. That just makes one respond in a haughty manner in return! Surely we've debated enough over the years to go beyond that? The field of psychology is only a starting point for discussion. The field is fraught with holes.   Many times people with actual life experiences who've studied the field can see the blatant oversights that some middle class white (even if they are gifted) professional psychologist can never know through their lab rat approach. Maybe we should separate this stuff for another thread? 

What do you make of the idea of gold behind the proposed brics currency btw?  

Here you go:

As for the video, I hope your not hiding behind these to justify your beliefs. A lot of these YouTubers are just advertising some product or another. 

One thing that needs to be pointed out is how the graph in the video just shows the history of inflation and deflation. The value of the dollar may have gone down in nominal terms but salaries have gone up so it’s all relative. You can’t even compare some of the things that are available for purchase either - how much would a personal computer cost in the 1920s?

I think gold as backing for currency is a good start but I’ve already brought up a bunch of pitfalls earlier in this thread. The same goes for using a basket of currencies. I wish the BRICS all the best but it won’t be easy. 

It’s most likely considered perceptive to you as most of the rest of my post is too nuanced and complex. For those from a scientific or mathematic background your admission about this field is wild. Many psychologists try to pass off what they think as absolute fact and theories from this field have huge impacts on society. You yourself have gone on about things such as projection/compartmentalisation as if they are completely true but are now trying to walk it back as I’ve delved further into the issues than you feel comfortable with.

As for your definitions, they’re a bit simplistic. Narcissistic rage is more akin to a social dissonance in which it is observed as external behaviour as opposed to the internal mechanism of cognitive dissonance. Hysteria is more of a delusion induced panic. Incitement isn’t done to create a reaction from someone - it’s done so that a dark triad individual can use and hide behind others who do their dirty work and build consensus in order to harm an individual. Maligning and smear campaigns may be the same thing but then again in many languages there are different terms for the same thing. Smear campaigns more often than not don’t involve projection. They usually play off stereotypes and wishful thinking or just straight up derision.

If you want to discuss any topic in detail you can’t just use general terms or claim afterwards what you’re saying covered something unrelated. I’ve already pointed out in the BRICS thread the difference in the left wing and right wing use of language, including how left leaning universities encourage students and academics to essentially reinvent the wheel in order to seem fresh and original, even though it has become tiresome to observe for many.

This is the other thing about psychology. You talk about specifics but when the details are scrutinised you roll back and say the issues are multifaceted. It’s clear many psychologists just say whatever suits their viewpoint and force the facts to fit as you have done with compartmentalisation which you are now associating with suppression/ repression. Either it has clear patterns or it is open ended in which case it is too vague to attribute. You can’t have it both ways. 

I would discount brain scans. In mathematics a number is a number and proofs can’t be disproved. In science an element will behave the same in a laboratory as it does in one of it’s naturally occurring states. Humans are not lab rats. People know when they are being observed and often change their behaviour accordingly depending on who they are around. It’s not hard to see that someone with dark triad traits most likely has an ‘autist mode’ they enter to help avoid detection. Any idiot should be able to figure that out. For example, in  reality look at racists or islamists and how they act - on their own they are  fearful, when with others like themselves they are provocative and when in front of authority they play the victim/innocent. How exactly do psychologists account for the variable factors in determining real world behaviour and thought? It’s certainly not by hooking someone up to a machine and waiting for a result. This sort of investigation isn’t much better than using lie detector tests.

The thing about spectrums is that each thing on it essentially bleeds into another. It’s a weird term to use to describe autism as there are other things which are similar in certain components to it like Aspergers but are fundamentally different as a whole to an extent that they can’t be placed side by side. I think my views on autists isn’t exactly uncommon even if psychologists have convinced themselves otherwise. Time will tell.

My comments about the sadist were solely in relation to your reliance on the concept of theory of mind. I was not offering a complete and thorough breakdown of this type of personality. There may be an element of personal energy to it but there is also the satisfaction gained from the simple inequality of the action they have committed. It’s an interesting area which you should look into. Going forward I am going to post some articles and essays from various places that may help add to the discussion. Just because I post it doesn’t mean I agree with everything said within or that I’m hiding behind it, rather it may help to understand the topic. Here is one:

https://www.mindbodygreen.com/articles/what-are-dark-empaths

I know it may be upsetting to have to engage in these long bruising discussions but I don’t mind as this is often the only way to really get people to delve into it rather than relying on whatever they usually have running around in their skulls. I don’t want this to come across as some sort of academic paper but I won’t tone it down just because some quasi-intellectual know-nothings get triggered by intelligent debate. I know some here want to keep Sikhs dumb but I don’t believe in that. There is a real danger that we Sikhs may end up with our own version of lysenkoism if we keep having to kowtow to the stupid or insane. 

On 1/31/2023 at 4:04 AM, dalsingh101 said:

I don't believe this. No way a big crew like that is going for a rollie unless it's some super rare mega expensive one. How much do you think a crew like that would get once they've split the money.  

Supposedly these gangs spend most of their day just walking/cycling around looking at people’s jewellery/brand of clothing/personal items. You know how brits can be good at gauging those sorts of things. When they see someone who has what they want they call the rest of the group and go for it. They make money by quantity not quality - they probably stole a couple of watches that day on top of dozens of phones and even other things like a car. This is normal for London and the South East, sometimes it’s just one guy going around doing it: https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/dad-knifepoint-robbed-15k-rolex-watch-westfield-car-park/

On 1/27/2023 at 5:53 PM, dalsingh101 said:

@HSD You should read this, I think you'd like it? 

Is this the one?

https://www.amazon.ca/gp/aw/d/019975506X/ref=tmm_hrd_swatch_0?ie=UTF8&qid=&sr=

On 2/2/2023 at 10:56 AM, dalsingh101 said:

The potential dissonance comes from lower level narcs who actually believe they are great (exteme egocentrism), but when external factors (i.e. reactions to their behaviour) point otherwise to an extent that it penetrates their psyche (albeit temporarily). When some of this gets through and they have an inkling that their self perception is off - that's when they'd start with the projection. That's when they will accuse others of being like they are. If you've known any closely, it's very strange to see how when they have been caught out by one person and told x,y and z about themselves, they then go and almost repeat these same statements verbatim to someone they have in a vulnerable dynamic, that's how some seem to shake off the reality. It is a clear projection. I think you are right in that it doesn't stem from any real conscience but rather a realisation that their actions may be harming them when the dysfunction they perpetuate comes back and bites them in the ar5e. But quickly, they rearrange reality in their heads to keep their fractured self-perception intact. Their whole conceptualisation of the world is fractured and inconsistent. You can catch them blatantly lying, and the next day they'll behave as if this didn't happen. They have a very useful 'reset' function' and seem capable of moving on very quickly without any trouble. Apart from sociopaths that seem intrinsically born that way,  most seem to have turned that way from childhood trauma - so they are compartmentalising or suppressing the past. It seems to manifest as extreme controlling behaviour, and a reversal of previous roles where they were the abused and now become the abusers. The chaos they inflict on other people's lives seems to fuel them, probably as some sense of power, again stemming from the loss of control they experienced as abused children.    From a Sikhi perspective it appears to be an extreme case of haumai? 

One persistent characteristic they all seem to have is the inability to comprehend anything that is not directly tangible and material i.e. metaphysics. If brain scans of psychos are anything to go by, it appears as if the regions of the brain associated with empathy, or 'theory of mind' are dead or dysfunctional. This seems to enhance their ability to manipulate but they seem akin to people on the autism scale in that they are incapable of 'theory of mind' conceptualisations towards other humans. Instead they seem to see them as objects to callously manipulate for their own purposes.  Other than that, the lack of guilt and conscience makes them not care anyway. It's interesting to note that Sant ji used to say that the death he fears the most, is the death of the conscience (jameer).     

 

BTW: I think the clockwork orange approach to trying to fix them just makes them worse. They used to have a 'short, sharp shock' approach towards incarcerated young offenders in the UK in the recent past (in Borstals)  - this was proven to make the subjects even worse in future. 

  

I have more to say about your (and my own) observations towards apnay in this respect and will do that later. 

This is why psychology comes across as a pseudoscience. Dark triad individuals are simply not capable of cognitive dissonance as they don’t feel discomfort when others challenge their beliefs - the dark triad individual already holds those people in contempt and flippantly disregards what they say. Rather than simply punching down, these sorts of individuals usually do one of the following: indulge in hysteria, incitement, maligning the people responsible, emotional transference, deploying empathy traps or coercion of others to become human shields for protection. What you’re describing as projection is the low IQ type actions of an individual who, going by their own past experience, feels they are going to be tarred and therefore preemptively accuses to get ahead of any negative perceptions that they feel may form due to how they are. If they don’t, it makes their needs far harder to achieve. There is nothing worse for a narcissist/sociopath/psychopath than to be exposed and prevented from indulging in their true selves.

As for what you know as forgetting or rearranging thoughts that is more like ‘mental memory-holing’ than compartmentalisation. The thing with compartmentalisation is that it involves boxing up the trauma in what eventually becomes a flooded section that weighs an individual down. It manifests itself in later life through various types of self harm. What you say about compartmentalisation doesn’t even match the current views on it as described by other psychologists so either you misunderstood what you learnt or what you know is outdated.

The idea of copycat catharsis is also bizarre. It’s a common psychology trope that people who have had bad things happen to them then seek to injure others. In reality people with conscience are reluctant to commit these same acts as they are unwilling to perpetuate bad behaviour. More often than not the dark triad individual claims to have been the victim in order to justify their actions and to add insult to injury. Not only have they caused harm but they have prevented the victim from being treated as the one who has suffered. Look at the Columbine school shooting for example, where the perpetrators claimed they were being bullied. Only later did it come out that both were racists who decided to get violent as their bullying wasn’t as enjoyable as they had hoped.

Rather than having been on the receiving end as children, what normally happens is that an impressionable child experiences normalisation or indoctrination when young to believe these thoughts and behaviours are justifiable. This is how racism and islamism are instilled in their respective groups. Normalisation usually involves seeing it in practice, such as ponces seeing their elders abusing other children.  This creates an attitude that feels it is reasonable to do this when they themselves are older. Indoctrination involves explaining the theory behind bad actions with acceptable reasons. That is why it is easy to observe danger signals given off by these types from a young age as they are manifested in an immature form. In fact, many of these types have a deep seated respect for their abusers and don’t feel many negative feelings towards those that have caused them significant harm, unless what has happened to them begins to damage their ego at some point.

Human beings aren’t lab rats and it’s not surprising that people act differently in controlled conditions than when they think they aren’t being observed. Brain activity is basically a step up from phrenology and isn’t widely considered as being reflective of genuine mental states. To compare autists to dark triad types is strange. Autistic people struggle with lying and often have too much empathy. Most attitudes toward them are the result of bigotry in the field of psychology and double empathy has shown how a lot of what you say is ridiculous. On top of the dark triad there is another personality type - the sadist. The concept of theory of mind does not account for someone who displays this type of mentality as the sadist requires a keen understanding of how others think in order to gain pleasure from their negative reactions. You’ve also contradicted yourself by saying dark triad types don’t understand how others think but then describe them as being good at manipulation - they would require a good grasp of others in order to deceive them.

The aversion therapy from A Clockwork Orange does work, chemically and visually. There is a whole bunch of modern displays of this from psychiatric medicine to advertising. Do you mean electroshock therapy instead? If you know more about what happened in borstals I’d like to here it, your generation tend to be a bit reluctant to talk about it. 

On 2/1/2023 at 12:32 AM, GurjantGnostic said:

Indeed. I do think hg claims to be the only true ultra however we know of, the npd still hides in the others, they are more or less self aware but not aware they have npd specifically. I'll listen to those at work tonight. In my sleep deprived craze I skimmed and thought you were hsd. And simply failed and flailed in his direction. 

On 2/1/2023 at 12:39 AM, GurjantGnostic said:

Facts. And yet, bro has crossed too many lines with me. I have him on ignore usually. Dude should be banned. 

To name just a few, we have the doxing,  the racism, the constant lying which is obvious. 

You're the only person who talks to him even and he treats you like shit. 

His redeeming feature is war footage and I don't see anything Sikh about this idiot. 

Punjabi ancestors of mixed hindu muslim heritage doesn't cut it. 

And he operates like a flying monkey for the weirdos on ss. 

On 2/1/2023 at 12:45 AM, GurjantGnostic said:

The list of all the inappropriate and intentionally inaccurate manipulative bs is too long to list really. Just browse his history. 

Don’t lie, you never ignore me. In fact you are obsessed with me and take every opportunity to belittle, moan or whine like a little racist.

You’ve even now admitted you instinctively lash out when you see my posts. The best thing for everyone would be if you ended up in a padded cell in a psychiatric facility.

You're just triggered because you thought Sikhs were stupid and a soft touch but coming across a Sikh who actually has a brain upsets your white savior complex. Pack up your histrionic personality disorder as well as your narcissism and leave me alone. 

On 1/31/2023 at 8:19 PM, dalsingh101 said:

 

Don't over react. It's good that people are being aware of these issues. Although the history and development of the DSM seems lacking in any scientific approach. I see A LOT of sociopaths/narcissists these days. It's telling that there is no 'treatment' for it. Basically it's incurable.  

Although the DSM doesn't mention those things, from what I've seen they are very common strategies used by narcs to avoid self-reflection. I think they'd come under strategies to counter cognitive dissonance when narcs get pinned down or in those rare occasions they might be able to pierce through their behaviour and have some cognition that what they are doing is wrong.

 

 

 

I actually delved into it at postgrad level, I graduated in something else altogether (techy subject). The subject has a mix of soft and for want of a better word 'hard' subsubjects. It's about as diverse as you can get. The soft 'social studies' part I really struggled with (whereas  most of the female students breezed through it, and parts of the more logico-rational 'cognitive psychology' were tough.   I breezed through the biological parts (when most struggled though), I guess we do have these inherent strengths and weaknesses. Most of the course (and no one was funded, it was all 'pay upfront') were white, middle class females (like 85-90%!!) 

I think for western culture the field tries to cover the ground that  more traditional ones cover with 'religion' by this I mean that it tries to explain behaviour and define good and bad behaviour inline with western objectives.   There is a lot of bullshit involved but aspects of it is very insightful. I don't see anything wrong in trying to understand oneself btw. The field has a lot of holes though, like findings not being 'cross-culturally valid' i.e. findings from one study not applicable to another cultural group. 

 

 

There is a distinction between low level narcs (i.e. ones with low self-awareness) and higher functioning narcs (who have enough intelligence to figure out what they are and how they fit into society). Our lot are low level types, that's why so many movements Sikhs start get derailed into the ground, because our own low level narcs see the opportunity to benefit by siding and supporting the other side. I think the very harsh, dog eat dog conditions in many villages and aspects of Panjabi culture itself (a norm of land squabbles, back stabbing over property entitlements help give rise to sociopathic traits amongst our lot). Others, seem to be more high level, and focus on preserving their own advantageous structure and picking off vulnerable outsiders. 

I think most people with sociopathy or psychopathy aren't diagnosed. 

It’s not entirely incurable. Most treatments are unpalatable though. The whole A Clockwork Orange approach would be considered torture for example.

This is the problem with Psychology as I learned about the subject - it often contradicts itself. How can someone with a dark triad mind ever feel what they do is wrong when they are completely without conscience? The idea that these sorts of people would have cognitive dissonance is ridiculous. What you’re observing is a self-serving behaviour designed to prevent repercussions to the dark triad individual. Real compartmentalisation is more often a stratagem for trauma blocking and used by people who have faced dangerous or invasive individuals in the past. Projection is more associated with egomaniacs who can’t face their own inadequacies.

A lot of the racist lunatics I’ve come across are women and most of them were from lower middle class families and above. I don’t think gender or class determines mental illness but does play a role in the type of behaviours that are exhibited. I was going to create a thread on profiling brits but I decided against it, Sikhs just aren’t ready.

It does feel like these sorts of inexact sciences have become a go to for their soul searching. Seeing as the subject started in white countries trying to figure themselves out after losing WW1 it’s no surprise.

I don’t think our lot have the dark triad. Very few are superficially charming or capable of the levels of deception that those with the three dark personalities have. With Sikhs it looks to me like a combination of dissociative identity  disorder, mental feebleness and learned helplessness alongside a few others that aren’t so prevailing.  Some sellouts I’ve seen gained nothing from being the way they are but couldn’t stop themselves from doing what they do. An example of this type of Sikh is the coconut who does the whole ‘I’m not a p*ki’ routine for whites even if it’s obvious they don’t care, you must have come across lowlifes like that. It’s like there is another part of themselves that is in complete adoration of or even a member of the enemy group. This side is often completely different to their Sikh facing display.

Considering how unscientific the field is and how subjective the people who gravitate towards it are, it’s not surprising psychological terms are not considered akin to real descriptions or treatment like with Medicine/Dentistry. It’s also fair to say that neurodivergence and mental illness are not the same thing.