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I couldn't find multiple meanings from bhai kahn singh nabha mahan kosh, i was searching through mahan kosh online, just found the meaning i posted above. Please share other meaning bhai sahib explained from mahan kosh in Gurmukhi or just give the page number. I will look it up.

Sant baba gurbachan singh bhindranwale talks about six different types of avtars of vahiguroo for understanding where guru sahib comes first- guru avtar then followed by puran hari avtar- krishan/ram thats more consistently fit with bhaita da swaiye gurbani and concept of avtar laid out in gurbani.

I think i have already discussed three different context of satguru shabad in gurbani with you in the past. The problem is always been semenatics and your attempts to make satguru nanak dev ji as standlone prophet through all the yugs to put down other dharams or other avtars like krishan, ram chandar ji, narsingha, janak, bal avtar. Either way its all in wording, i don't have major issue with wording but have major concerns with your intent, because for me there is no difference between sargun and nirgun but for the sake of non duality-advait and for sake of staying in align with sidhant in mool mantar/jaap sahib of nirgun vahiguroo lachan just like puratan samparda's , i would like to use Nirgun Parbhram Vahiguroo transcendent its different kala/attributes (upon need) into respective avtars of various yugas to benefit human kind and gave them marg towards bhramgyan.

If one wishes to argue and say- our satguru were shabad naam all along not bodies, thats fine, no problem in essence that is indeed the reality. That same shabad gurmat naam resonance also created everything along shud satoguni avtars like- guru maharaj ji panj bhootak choola along with other avtars and sargun parsara. Shabad resonance is sanjha and its been there since aad.. we(sikhs) don't have monopoly over ongkar or aumkar(difference in nasal sound). So all this talk of differentiation or aucha nivha or even dharam is gone off the window. RIP.

Answer is pretty straight forward but lets play devil's advocate- is selling medical drug which contains drugs mentioned above for a sikh right or wrong? how do you differentiate the above scenario with this one- is selling medical drug which contains drugs mentioned above for a sikh? right or wrong?

Is answers to both scenarios is wrong/right or is right and other one is wrong?? which drives this right or wrong answers, is it soceity or intent? Gurbani is not a rule book. It's agad bodh atma gyan.

Here is another one, amritdhari singh is a truck driver, he gets all different types of load because he is stand by on dispatch, should he refuse to take the load which carries packaged beef/meat or packaged alcohol or tobacco ?

The translation is wrong. Check Bhai Veer Singh’s teeka of Vaars in which he translates “Jug Jug” as 2+2=4 which means Satguru will change 4 more human bodies. Sikhs are questioning Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji about how many more ‘cholas’ will the Satguru change and Guru Sahib replies that 4 more. Then the Guru Light passed to the Shabad.

Sorry for late reply, from uthanka point of view (taking the whole pauri) -bhai veer singh ji translation on this tuk is 100% correct as its pretty much consistent with the pauri. But as there are more than one interpretation of gurbani as long its within gurmat sidhant because from vikayaran pakh- bhai kahn singh nabha in his mahan kosh translates jug jug = each age not 2 + 2, also if one compares this tuk of 48th pauri with bhata svaiie on different yugas then initial translation i posted seems more consistent. Nevertheless, I think both interpretations are correct.

"Ek Machar Admi Ko Hizra Bana Daita hai" Nana Patekar.

I just re-checked the comments on there guys, someone even posted sardar kapoor singh couplet on kirpan in the comments which is quite explicit listed below. Look lets just face it - main aim for kirpan is meant for defend the weak from oppressor. There is no denying there. I think our leaders abroad declaring kirpan being article of faith just symbol made a smart choice to push kirpan as ceremonial dagger as it has multi-purpose in gurdwara ceremonies.

But its very important for all Sikhs living abroad to consider kirpan as article of faith in public or outside and best fit to present that way instead of wearing 2 foot kirpans in public, now that quite evidently is perceived not as article of faith but weapon in public. I think there should be standard size of kirpans not small ones but to the extend where its not consider weapon in general paranoid public.

I think our leaders have done very good job presenting kirpan case in front of superior court of justice so all the amritdhari gursikhs can keep the maryada. With that being said, its extremely important for all Sikhs abroad to understand kirpan multi purpose and only use kirpan in ceremonies - karah parshad, langar, amrit sanchar. Also what we also need an article on kirpan for westerners which describes its multi-purpose.

A quote by Sardar Kapur Singh is instructive,

'... ( the sword) is by ancient tradition and association, a typical WEAPON OF OFFENCE AND DEFENSE and, hence, a fundamental right of the freeman, the sovereign individual to wear it. All governments and rulers, whether ancient or modern, have insisted and do insist on their right to control and curtail the right of a citizen to WEAR ARMS. Indeed, in the final analysis, a government or the State is sustained and supported by organized power and the exclusive right of possession or arms, a citizen's right to wear arms being conceded as only a permissive and licensed character. It follows from this that the measure of freedom to posses and wear arms by an individual is the precise measure of his freedom and sovereignty." Sardar Kapur Singh, from Parasaraprsna, pp.107-108

As Sardar jee states , a state’s power comes through its ability to limit the use of weapons by its subjects. The right to carry weapons is one that is solely open to the state, and to state authorities. Citizens that wish to carry arms, are either not allowed to at all , or are severely restricted in this right , and forced to carry licenses , have to fulfill strict requirements, have severe restrictions placed on the type of weapons they may own, and are limited in how they may go about carrying their weapons. Without this right , a state loses its legitimacy, and its right to govern. And it is here that the true revolutionary aspect of wearing a Kirpan comes to the fore.

The Kirpan is our way of showing to the world that we as Sikhs will never bow down to any state authority."

http://www.esikhs.com/articles/the_gurus_grace.htm

I am not sure if gurdas mann was silent over this because i think he put his point across very well in the second article posted on this thread.

Please add your comments in the discussion going on CBC on kirpans:

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/calgary/story/200...#socialcomments

http://www.calgaryherald.com/sports/Respec...0915/story.html

Respect diversity, accept the kirpans

By Naomi Lakritz, Calgary HeraldAugust 5, 2009 2:02 AM

What is all the fuss about kirpans? And why did they suddenly become an issue at Gurdas Maan's concert at the Telus Convention Centre when they've never been an issue at public venues in Calgary before?

Sunday night's concert was halted because 10 elderly men arrived wearing kirpans under their clothes, as is required by the Sikh religion. So what? No doubt Calgary Sikhs have for years attended plays at Theatre Calgary, concerts at the Jack Singer, Flames games at the Saddledome and so on. No concert by the Calgary Philharmonic Orchestra, no play and no hockey game have ever been shut down because of a Sikh in the audience, wearing his kirpan.

People are entitled to wear religious symbols. That means a Sikh should be as free to wear a kirpan as a Christian is to wear a crucifix around the neck. If we're not prepared to accept this in Alberta, then the next skid mark down the slippery slope to outright xenophobia will be for us to be like Quebec, whose government is being pressured to ban the wearing of religious symbols by civil servants, including teachers and doctors. Oppress one, oppress all is their motto.

France has long since gone that way. Let's not follow. In 2004, the French government banned visible religious symbols in public schools, including Sikh turbans. Just before the ban came into effect, then-president Jacques Chirac said: "Secularism is one of the great successes of the republic. It is a crucial element of social peace and national cohesion. We cannot let it weaken."

Chirac didn't weaken it. He destroyed it. Secularism should not involve suppression of people's religions or enforced cohesion; it should acknowledge people's individuality, respect their personal choice to wear a given religious symbol, and treat them all the same regardless. Secularism should make no big deal out of diversity. Otherwise, it becomes the great oppressor, not the great leveller of society, and its own dubious practice of equal opportunity oppression is far worse than the harmless wearing of religious symbols.

Kirpans have sharp points, which is why Transport Canada regulations require them to be taken on a plane in checked baggage, rather than carried on board. One can only imagine the harm a kirpan could do if it were wrested away from a Sikh passenger by some individual with terrorist leanings. But a concert hall is not an airplane, to be hijacked or crashed.

"The kirpan is no more symbolic (of) a weapon than the Christian cross is symbolic of a torture instrument," historian Sandeep Singh Brar explains on his website, sikh.org,which was the Internet's first Sikh site, and has been around for more than a decade. "To Sikhs the kirpan is religiously symbolic of their spirituality and the constant struggle of good and morality over the forces of evil and injustice, both on an individual as well as social level. The usage of the kirpan in this religious context is clearly indicated in the Sikh holy scriptures (Sri Guru Granth Sahib) and wearing it is meant to inspire a Sikh in their daily life," Brar says. So if Sikhs do not regard kirpans as weapons, why should the rest of the world show an overweening concern about them? Live and let live. Brar makes an interesting point about the cross. If Christianity were not the majority religion in Canada, would its followers be roundly condemned as advocates of torture for wearing that symbolic "torture instrument" in public?

To see how ludicrous the to-do over the kirpans at the concert is, one need only reverse the roles, as I learned a few years ago when there was an uproar about Sikhs not wanting to remove their turbans to wear bicycle helmets. Much grumbling at the time seemed to focus on the grumblers' refusal to pay the health-care costs of a helmetless Sikh who might be involved in an accident. Happy Mann, a Calgary Sikh, phoned me to say that the public needed to be set straight. "Sikhs don't smoke, but we are paying for health care for smokers and they are the biggest burden on the system. Baptized Sikhs don't drink, either, but we pay for the drunk-driving violations, the cost of counselling, the health care. But, Sikhs never complain about any of that," Mann said.

What bothers me most is the indignity suffered by the 10 elderly men wearing their kirpans. They were ordinary folks who came to the show in anticipation of enjoying a pleasant evening at a concert, just as any Calgarian would. Prevented from entering because of a religious symbol that they carry to remind them to live in a godly manner, they ended up being treated like "the other." Their ouster resulted in the entire show being halted. Where was all the respect for diversity that we're constantly told is a basic tenet of this Canada we live in?

nlakritz@theherald.canwest.com

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/nation...article1241382/

A concert promoter is threatening to sue a Calgary venue for abruptly cancelling a concert after a Sikh patron refused to hand over his ceremonial dagger to security.

About 2,500 people were packed into a sold-out Calgary Telus Convention Centre on Sunday, waiting for Indian superstar singer and actor Gurdas Maan to take the stage, when management decided to shut the show down.

Centre spokeswoman Heather Lundy said a patron had refused to hand over his kirpan, a ceremonial dagger male Sikhs are required to wear at all times.

When security told the man he would not be admitted, “the people started to get all riled up,” she said.

“With the safety of our patrons foremost in our minds, the difficult decision was made to cancel the event, prior to Gurdas Maan taking the stage,” Ms. Lundy said in a statement Tuesday. “We take very seriously our responsibility to provide all our visitors with a safe and non-threatening environment. Regrettably, some attendees refused to allow us to meet that mandate.”

Ms. Lundy said all promoters are made aware of the centre's security policy, which prohibits sharp metal objects.

Conveners are also asked ahead of time to advise the centre of any cultural or religious matters that need to be addressed, but Sai Productions Entertainment's Nirmal Dhaliwal mentioned no such issues, she said.

Sai Productions Entertainment's Nirmal Dhaliwal, who organized the event, conceded the contract did include a clause prohibiting weapons. But he maintains that the kirpan is not a weapon.

He has said that he intends to sue the convention centre for loss of income incurred as a result of the cancellation. Ms. Lundy said the centre has consulted its lawyers.

Sikhs are required to wear the kirpan at all times, even when sleeping. It becomes part of a man's body, explained Ajit Singh Sahota, director of administration for the World Sikh Organization. He noted that he visits Parliament every few months and that nobody there has ever questioned his right to wear the kirpan.

Mr. Sahota said the Sikh community has been a victim of racism under the pretext of safety.

“It's a horrible thing they have done,” he said. “They have no business doing this to the Sikh community in Calgary.”

Calgary's Gurmail Singh Bhattal was one of the disappointed concertgoers.

He paid $800 for tickets for himself, his wife and his two sons to see Mr. Maan.When he made it to the front of the line at the venue, he found the entrance shuttered.

“I was really, really disappointed,” Mr. Bhattal said. “The whole community was very upset. The security guards should have known.”

While Mr. Bhattal did attend a make-up concert at a park in northeast Calgary on Monday, he said it just wasn't the same.

“It wasn't close to what it would have been,” he said. With a report from The Canadian Press

Editing functionality is enabled now.

Guys give it a rest, enough said on this topic. Regardless of what people think about him all in all he is dead at human level - Let his soul rest in peace. People who have criticism against him, do include him also in your sarbat da bhalla ardas.

Topic Closed due to going around in circles

So in what context did she make the remarks in the video above?

Regards,

K.

No idea bro.. i guess she can only clarify which context she said it...regardless ...above singh sahib in response to her, totally shut her off.....!!!!!

Guys just passing by..I am not taking sides just try to post both sides of the story..this bibi was invited to one of the radio stations in vancouver where she mentione two things i thought i mention- first this lecture was close to 2 hrs long she belives somebody took her lecture out of context..second thing is this video was shot year half ago..why is it coming out now?

I think this is perfect chance to meet him and casually ask him about this..baba ji is loving nature /shant sava..he won't mind at all.

No link for pirated software please. Topic closed.

The translation is wrong. Check Bhai Veer Singh’s teeka of Vaars in which he translates “Jug Jug” as 2+2=4 which means Satguru will change 4 more human bodies. Sikhs are questioning Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji about how many more ‘cholas’ will the Satguru change and Guru Sahib replies that 4 more. Then the Guru Light passed to the Shabad.

Bijla Singh,

I don't have bhai veer singh's teeka with me at the moment nor i have much time at this moment (as i m out of town with limited internet access) to discuss this thread with you likewise it may turn into another healthy but long long long discussion/vichar. We can do vichar on this, as soon as i am in town which would sometime after august 3rd.

Nevertheless, most of this already been discussed, people who are interested can search this forum and on sikhsangat (I had Namstang alias on there).

Kalyug veer,

In order to understand leela of avtar, one needs to concept of avtar from bhai gurdas ji varan, bhat swaies and sri dasam granth. Akaal Purkh transcendent its quality/attributes into sargun avtar based on the need of time (listen to sant jagjit singh ji harkhowale discussion with me on this under topic of week forum). Avtar fulfill their duties and go back to akaal purkh respective on each yugas, followers understand their message when they initially transcendent into this earth. But as time goes by that messages gets clouded by dubta/sansa/doubts and misinterpreted and turned into empty ritual.

Lets look at the conditions of both dharams - islam and hinduism around sri guru gobind singh ji time- these dharam followers start idolizing their prophets instead of focusing on the prophets message they start bickering among each other who's prophet is better? and started idolizing their prophets mind you this happens at sikh dharam as well which is sad, tat khalsa mentality are guilty of this.. anyway coming back to the point, around that time, this was a condition of the people who represented hinduism and islam. Guru maharaj looking at the sad state of people he denounced this idolizing of devi's/devta's and hari avtars like krishan/ram by reciting this tuk - Main Na Ganesha pritham maniyoo Kishan bishan kabhoo na Dhiayoo Kaan sune pehchan na tin ko Liv laagi mori pag unso" - I don't worship deities Krishna,Ganesha or Bishan

I have heard about them but do not recognize them. My saviour is One God, the almighty.

Now this is very important in the same sri dasam granth sahib bani- sri guru gobind singh ji warns his Sikhs too regarding this of this grave danger that many hindus and Muslims fell into idolizing their prophet, he warned his sikhs by also reciting the tuk - aad ant eka avtara sohi sumjaieo guru hamera || that my guru is vahiguroo himself but when you look at sri guru gobind singh ji sahib life, his father was sri guru tegh bahudar sahib ji was his gyan data guru despite of that he said my guru is vahiguroo himself so that sikhs dont go astry idolizing the deh or avtars. not only that in bachitar natak itself sri guru gobind singh ji went far as saying- those who call me god will burn in hell, one shouldn't take this tuk literally nor one should take that tuk as form of showing nirmata, guru ji had very clear message behind this, we should try to understand what guru ji is saying- guru ji again warning his sikhs not to idolize me but focus on my message- shabad guru. Sri guru gobind singh ji is warning his sikhs not fo fall for this

Also to further reinforce my point, guru ji is avtar of vahiguroo we all agree so as krishan and ram. To future reinforce my point that krishan maharaj and ram chandar ji and all other hindu gods were avtars of vahiguroo.. sri guru gobind singh ji mentions this tuk in sri dasam granth sahib:

nirgun vahiguroo actualy transcedent in form of avtar in satyug/dvapar/treta from beginning of avtars birth to give gyan and benefit human kind we seem to ignore bhai gurdas ji varan and sri dasam patsah bachan in sri dasam granth sahib :

Jab Jab Arsat Hot Sansara ||

Tab Tab Deh Dharat Avtara He said in sri dasam bani again-

Then Bhai gurdas ji mentions: Jag Jag Satgur Dharie Avatari ||

In each age, the true guru will take avtar - nirgun vahiguroo transcedent itself into avtar.

Sri Guru gobind singh ji was very blunt in his message in his rachna- sri dasam guru granth sahib but that shouldn't be taken as form of disrespect to hindu gods but an reality of sargun avtars(which includes him as well). Here is another one

Ek Shiv bhai ek gyaie ek pher paie ram chandar kai avtar bhi anek hai ... (Sri Akaal Ustat)

He is telling us the reality of avtarhood that we(avtars) come go give the message of vahiguroo, its very important to follow the message not idolize the messenger because avtars bodies were also made of shud satogun still -5 elements..one day they have to transcendent back to where they came from.

In essence, guru ji never criticized the krishan or ram he criticized the people who idolized them in above manner.

Anyway coming back to the topic, title shouldn't be gurmat and gita. The correct title suitable for this type of thread should be- is tatgyan in sri guru granth sahib and bhagvad gita is it same? and quotes from sri guru granth sahib ji and gita should be provided to prove or prove otherwise.

oh i see.

is that organizers from Sikh student camp?

Can we get bit of background on her? I heard she did very good work for dalits human rights in UP and human rights in general. She was very respective of other religions before. But all of sudden she made this U turn. Any more info on her would be greatly appreciated.

May his soul rest in peace.

original garbage:

powerful response:

Enjoy guys !!!

Make sure you be there...!!!!!!!

Make sure you be there...!!!!!!!

Can someone summarize all related post of this whole thread so far so that we can close this thread?