SAadmin

Whats happening in this video?

Starting it seems like gorreh, asians, blacks were together and in middle, someone is chanting allah hu akhbar then everyone is running and going against each other?

Kalyug,

I still have to do bit of research on this. However, i was speaking to this gurmukh based on his research. He said- Bhai Kahn Singh Nabha in his- Hum Hindu Nahin give arths of gurbani sometimes twist them in haste to fight hindu fascism because same bhai kahn singh nabha when he quote gurbani of similar subject in his gurmat martand, they were contradictory. ???????????

I need someone online to verify this???, if this indeed true then this is probably an classic example of one twisting gurbani to fighting external threats.

Veer I never stated, gurbani justified murder of people or massacre of people nor i m trying compare dhur ki bani with quran. I am just saying sick twisted criminal/fanatic can misinterpret gurbani to fulfill their agenda, i gave example how ugardanti can be misinterpreted. Further more, just go to www.searchgurbani.com and then type in search - ਵਢ and use gurmukhi and you will see how gurbani can be misinterpreted. Again I am saying so far we don't have such violent mindset, but future might hold something else for the panth. Loads of mahapursh indicting worst have yet to come, in kalyug.

Wise people say- Half knowledge in something is more dangerous and lethal than no knowledge at all.

Exactly i agree, Sikh Marg is Unique and distinct path. Explaining this is like going to basics.

Both extremes are wrong in this thread, tisra panth in ugardanti clears show that khalsa/gurmat is different/unique marg established by sri guru gobind singh ji.

This is my personal opinion based on my research of gurbani and bachitar natak in sri dasam granth and off course i m still learning so please correct me if i m wrong - Gurmat Sidhant/Sikhi Marg is different unique from all the different sidhants/marg and snatan dharma. However our dharam vaans( Guru Maharaj lineage) is coming from Luv/Kush- Suryavanshi lineage which is very much part of snanatan dharam vans.

source- sant gurbachan singh ji bhindranwale work on this, where he explained this by quoting couplets from bachitar natak.

I was just reading question/answers pothi where jaigaso is asking questions to various mahapursh and mahapursh is giving answers. It's amazing, just scanned through it, its close to 100 questions and rest are bachans of Guru Sahiban and Sant Mahapursh. It cover all aspects of Sikhi. I spent half an hour reading the first question and answer, words used seems ok not too complicated besides quotes from sooraj parkash. I am just going to read the whole pothi within few weeks. After that I think I just might able to translate it by maharaj's kirpa for the sangat who wants the english version of it. I will let everyone if this thick mind grasp the gyan first let alone translating it into English.

They want Sikhs of so called low castes to abandon Sikhi for Buddhism

I think thats because betrayal and racism dr ambedekar experienced when he took his followers to sikh leaders to be in the panth. Our jatt mentality in the gurdwara politics through SGPC, are the cause of their animosity towards Sikhs.

I seriously think that you should spend some time reading the Quran, the Hadith and the Sharia to which they give birth before you make such changes in the future.

Why should i read quran when guru maharaj declared akaal ustat at the end all the dharams hold truth. I understand we are not gandhis, we don't follow politically correctness of this world but at least we need to acknowledge whats truth is truth. Topic tittle nor its contents didn't reflect whole islam.

This is harsh human truth applies to every very human nature, sharia panthi/fanatic will choose to see what they want to see, they will alway find somehow to misinterpret their scripture so its suit their own agenda, and mystics from the same scripture will see truth with their bibek and find salvation.

Scriptures are two edge sword, if its used for agenda, it could turn human into demon, if its used for gyan, it could turn human to bhramgyani.

By looking at the sad state of affairs in sikhi these days, i m sure 10-20 years from now, someone will get up from the panth and bomb mosques and mandirs and justify it by misquoting lines from Ugardanti and misinterpret Ugardanti. This act will be glorified and lead by bunch of people and here you go, we got our own future violent hostile cult. Luckily we don't now, but future says something else in Kalyug.

At the end of day, it appears there are quite bit of muslim fanatics but one gotta look at their population which is close to 1.1 billion compare that with our sikh population and our share of fanatics, after study of ratio, everything gets put into place.

No dharam is given clean chit, this is kalyug. History shows fanatics have repeatedly raped dharam morals to suit their own agenda because it has given them credibility, following and power. There were kharkhos of 1984 if you look at their life, some of their family and in some cases all their family was killed by indian forces, they had nothing but tamoguni revenge(unjustified revenge) in their hearts as any regular joe blow would, but they didn't went out and just kill to get their revenge, first they took amrit and then join movements so it give them more credibility, following and power and then they can start killing innocent people in name of dharam to hide their own helpless tamoguni revenge. At the end, silent sikh dharam was raped by these people, same thing happening with every other dharam even including buddhism which promotes ahinsa(non violence) dharam is been hijacked by siligans of sri lankas and commited atrocities against tamils in name of dharam.

Only thing remains untouched is truth/tat gyan of all dharams and the ones who apply truth in their daily life.

Before we give ideas, can you please tell us what will be the main area focus of this Camp?

Intial title of hypocrirsy of Islam was grossly judged not suitable/not fair. Therefore it was changed to Islamic "fanaticism".

I am going to change title of your topic- hypocrisy of islamic fanatics.

Kamlesh Apology:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rqr-0CAxxjs

I think it takes lot of character to make a video and say she was sorry. Guru Maharaj sada bakshand hai. If guru maharaj can overlook demonic things done by kauda rakshash, sajan thug. Then we as sikhs of that same guru can forgive her.

Bijla Singh,

Before we start another vichar on all the points you mentioned, its important to sort of break them down in different categories. So far points you mentioned that needs to be discussed in sequence are-

1. Interpretation of word- jug jug and whole tukh jug jug satgur dharie avtar can only binded into 2 + 2 and sakhi above.

2. Satguru kitab/label only limited to akaal purkh and sri guru nanak dev ji.

3. Vedas or different religious text in this case- gita does not preach mukhti nor follower of vedas/vedant/gita can get mukhti from understanding and abhyaas of tatgyan listed in vedas.

I think best suitable point for this particular topic- gurmat and gita would be number three. I will just quickly touch on your point 3 context of satguru you raised and point 1 is already addressed by tsingh but point three would be best suitable for this thread and should be focus of this topic. Therefore, i ll create a different thread to discuss context of satguru in depth on later date.

Bijla Singh you wrote:

I respect Sant Ji but he was not god. He was a human and did make mistakes in interpreting Gurbani. Just pick up Gurbani Paath Darpan and see it yourself. He used to say that Gurbani has no limits then why should we limit the interpretation to him only. Have you studied Gurbani from viyakaran perspective? How about interpretation of Bhai Kahan Singh, Bhai Randhir Singh, Bhai Veer Singh, Prof. Sahib Singh, Prin. Teja Singh etc? Giani Gurdit Singh spent more than 30 years in researching about Bhagats and their banis. His work cannot be matched by anyone else and facts he has brought forward cannot easily be ignored. I do not say other religions are 100% false (meaning have no truth) but they are not complete and cannot give muktee. They will give gyan, may help one progress spiritually but salvation is only in the house of Guru Nanak Sahib. Gurbani gyan is not as same as gyan of Vedas or other books. Daya Nand stated that Gurbani is “vedan da saar” and your statement is not any different if gyan is the same. Vedas are full of hypocritical stories and karam kaand whereas Gurbani is not. This is a long topic but Gurbani says that Vedas cannot give muktee even if one reads them for four yugs. Vedas are not Guru. Only Poora Guru gives muktee and Gurmat does not give status of Guru to anyone but Guru Nanak Jot.

Your understanding of Gurbani is very limited. So I suggest you study Vaars first in proper context and also study bhagat bani. Do not simply limit yourself to a certain sant and take his words to be absolute truth. Study with reasons and disagree with reasons. Once again I can only do veechar as it leads to Sikhs learning from each other by keeping their personal opinions below the authority of Gurbani. Veechar is done with an open mind and if at the end two people disagree, it does not end with frustration and personal attacks but with happiness and joy.

Bijla Singh,

I don't think anywhere i implied that i limit myself to certain sant in my post where i simply quoted what sant gurbachan singh ji bhindranwale said regarding comparison between gurmat and other mats. How this different from you quoting bhai veer singh ji to prove your point in this thread. In the past I have quoted not only from sant gurbachan singh ji bhindranwale but from bhai kahn singh nabha, faridkot teeka along with other scholary work.

Now going to your claim based on your understanding and research -

1. I do not say other religions are 100% false (meaning have no truth) but they are not complete and cannot give muktee. They will give gyan, may help one progress spiritually but salvation is only in the house of Guru Nanak Sahib.

2. Gurbani says that Vedas cannot give muktee even if one reads them for four yugs.

3. Only Poora Guru gives muktee and Gurmat does not give status of Guru to anyone but Guru Nanak Jot.

Disclaimer so that no one takes me out of context:

First of all, this is what i have discovered soo far though my understanding and research in path of sikhi, gurmat is nirole marg and gurbani have parchand tat gyan of vahiguroo free from all the karam kaands, thats why its soo unique. I consider gurmat also to be purushutam marg just like bijla singh and everyone else here. But with that being said, I also beleive other mats also have tat gyan of vahiguroo nirgun and have bhramgyan, all though sometimes clouded with karam kaands sometimes complex to understand because of linguistic barriers. If jaigaso of other mats is dedicated to get bhramgyan or kaival mukhti via dhikr, simran of vahiguroo, regardless of whichever jugs/yugas they are in, they were and will be graced with kaival mukhti/bhramgyan he/she does not have to go through gurmat or gurmat naam intiation/ khanda batta da amrit/naam dridtha as gurbani/gurmat sidhant of sikhism never promoted monoply over vahiguroo ji.

Bijla singh , I will now address your points again, its already addressed before:

1. Biggest example how other dharams are able to provide mukhti is just look at the bhagats life belong to different dharams and how they were jeven mukht.

True bhagats which are included in sri guru granth sahib ji didnt follow socio-religious boundaries of their own dharam (ie- islam, hinduism) but they belong to mystical orders of their dharam ie- sufi, shaivism, vaishnav as(tsingh posted), advait vedanta at higher stages.

Here are examples from sri guru granth sahib ji and sri dasam granth sahib ji:

Here sri guru arjan dev ji is saying see bottom- out of all religions, sraist is the one who meditates on vahiguroo.

ਸਰਬ ਧਰਮ ਮਹਿ ਸ੍ਰੇਸਟ ਧਰਮੁ ॥

sarab dhharam mehi sraesatt dhharam ||

Of all religions, the best religion

ਹਰਿ ਕੋ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਿ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਕਰਮੁ ॥

har ko naam jap niramal karam ||

is to chant the Name of the Lord and maintain pure conduct.

Obviously based on your theory, sri guru nanak dev ji gave deliverance of gurmat naam to all bhagats then they got mukht but only 0.1% in the panth beleives in such theory. Whilst, I don't deny sri guru nanak dev ji physically meeting ravidas, bhagat kabir and others but giving stories of sri guru nanak dev ji giving all the bhagats gurmat naam in gupt or agupt form and then they got mukht seems contradictory with gurbani. It just does not sit well sakhiya of ganka papan, ajamal, sain, dhru, parlad, jaidev bhai gurdas ji talks about.

You are simply replacing nirgun vachak of satguru in gurbani with satguru nanak dev ji of sargun or shabad form of vahiguroo in the varan and bhagata di bani to make Sikhi monopoly over naam and satguru word. It does not take genious to find out, at each and every step gurbani contradicts that mindset of using sargun/shabad form of vahiguroo in gurbani meaning where in fact it's dedicated to nirgun form of vahiguroo. There are places where satguru nanak dev ji is labeled as satguru nanak in gurbani, if sri guru nanak dev ji gave gurmat naam to all the bhagats then i m sure gurbani would have explicit about it and sakhiyas of previous bhagats' guru giving bhagats naam mentioned in bhai gurdas ji varan and gurbani wouldn't be even mentioned.

Also to say satguru in gurbani all along refers to sri guru nanak dev ji whether in sargun deh or shaabad form is pretty inconsistent with mahalla 1 where sri guru nanak dev ji themselves mentioned nirgun bhram as their satguru/guru and where sri guru gobind singh ji himself said:

Aad ant ekie avtara soi guru samjheo hamara ||

Avtar is from aadi nirgun bhram, consider that is my guru.

If guru gobind singh ji can call nirgun parbhram vahiguroo as guru from aadi kaal, then why satguru shabad in bhagata di bani cannot refer to nirgun parbhram vahiguroo??

Here is another one, look at whichever way you can, bring any teekar you like, this shababd exactly what it appears/explicit to be:

ਿੰਦੂ ਤੁਰਕ ਕੋਊ ਰਾਫਜੀ ਇਮਾਮ ਸਾਫੀ ਮਾਨਸ ਕੀ ਜਾਤਿ ਸਬੈ ਏਕੈ ਪਹਿਚਾਨਬੋ ॥

हिंदू तुरक कोऊ राफजी इमाम साफी मानस की जाति सबै एकै पहिचानबो ॥

Someone is Hindu and someone a Muslim, then someone is Shia, and someone a Sunni, but all the human beings, as a species, are recognized as one and the same.

ਕਰਤਾ ਕਰੀਮ ਸੋਈ ਰਾਜਕ ਰਹੀਮ ਓਈ ਦੂਸਰੋ ਨ ਭੇਦ ਕੋਈ ਭੂਲਿ ਭ੍ਰਮ ਮਾਨਬੋ ॥

करता करीम सोई राजक रहीम ओई दूसरो न भेद कोई भूलि भ्रम मानबो ॥

Karta (The Creator) and Karim (Merciful) is the same Lord, Razak (The Sustainer) and Rahim (Compassionate) is the same Lord, there is no other second, therefore consider this verbal distinguishing feature of Hindusim and Islam as an error and an illusion.

ਏਕ ਹੀ ਕੀ ਸੇਵ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਕੋ ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ਏਕ ਏਕ ਹੀ ਸਰੂਪ ਸਬੈ ਏਕੈ ਜੋਤ ਜਾਨਬੋ ॥੧੫॥੮੫॥

एक ही की सेव सभ ही को गुरदेव एक एक ही सरूप सबै एकै जोत जानबो ॥१५॥८५॥

Thus worship the ONE LORD, who is the common enlightener of all; all have been created in His Image and amongst all comprehend the same ONE LIGHT. 15.85.

ਦੇਹਰਾ ਮਸੀਤ ਸੋਈ ਪੂਜਾ ਔ ਨਿਵਾਜ ਓਈ ਮਾਨਸ ਸਬੈ ਏਕ ਪੈ ਅਨੇਕ ਕੋ ਭ੍ਰਮਾਉ ਹੈ ॥

देहरा मसीत सोई पूजा औ निवाज ओई मानस सबै एक पै अनेक को भ्रमाउ है ॥

The temple and the mosque are the same, there is no difference between a Hindu worship and Muslim prayer; all the human beings are the same, but the illusion is of various types.

ਦੇਵਤਾ ਅਦੇਵ ਜੱਛ ਗੰਧ੍ਰਬ ਤੁਰਕ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਨਿਆਰੇ ਨਿਆਰੇ ਦੇਸਨ ਕੇ ਭੇਸ ਕੋ ਪ੍ਰਭਾਉ ਹੈ ॥

देवता अदेव ज्छ गंध्रब तुरक हिंदू निआरे निआरे देसन के भेस को प्रभाउ है ॥

The gods, demons, Yakshas, Gandharvas, Turks and Hindus… all these are due to the differences of the various garbs of different countries.

ਏਕੈ ਨੈਨ ਏਕੈ ਕਾਨ ਏਕੈ ਦੇਹ ਏਕੈ ਬਾਨ ਖਾਕ ਬਾਦ ਆਤਿਸ ਔ ਆਬ ਕੋ ਰਲਾਉ ਹੈ ॥

एकै नैन एकै कान एकै देह एकै बान खाक बाद आतिस औ आब को रलाउ है ॥

The eyes are the same, the ears the same, the bodies are the same and the habits are the same, all the creation is the amalgam of earth, air, fire and water.

ਅਲਹ ਅਭੇਖ ਸੋਈ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਅਉ ਕੁਰਾਨ ਓਈ ਏਕ ਹੀ ਸਰੂਪ ਸਭੈ ਏਕ ਹੀ ਬਨਾਉ ਹੈ ॥੧੬॥੮੬॥

अलह अभेख सोई पुरान अउ कुरान ओई एक ही सरूप सभै एक ही बनाउ है ॥१६॥८६॥

Allah of Muslims and Abhekh (Guiseless) of Hindus are the same, the Puranas of Hindus and the holy Quran of the Muslims depict the same reality; all have been created in the image of the same Lord and have the same formation. 16.86.

2. I think you have only taken one pakh(angle) of gurbani where gurbani criticized karam kaands in vedas and puran, quran and people around that time, but you have ignored other pakh of gurbani where gurbani acknowledges vedas is also supported by naam and naam is main objective(Tat) in vedas.

Gurbani says the following:

http://www.gurugranthdarpan.com/darpan2/0284.html

ਨਾਮ ਕੇ ਧਾਰੇ ਸਗਲੇ ਜੰਤ ॥ ਨਾਮ ਕੇ ਧਾਰੇ ਖੰਡ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੰਡ ॥ ਨਾਮ ਕੇ ਧਾਰੇ ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਨ ॥ ਨਾਮ ਕੇ ਧਾਰੇ ਸੁਨਨ ਗਿਆਨ ਧਿਆਨ ॥ ਨਾਮ ਕੇ ਧਾਰੇ ਆਗਾਸ ਪਾਤਾਲ ॥ ਨਾਮ ਕੇ ਧਾਰੇ ਸਗਲ ਆਕਾਰ ॥ ਨਾਮ ਕੇ ਧਾਰੇ ਪੁਰੀਆ ਸਭ ਭਵਨ ॥ ਨਾਮ ਕੈ ਸੰਗਿ ਉਧਰੇ ਸੁਨਿ ਸ੍ਰਵਨ ॥ ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਜਿਸੁ ਆਪਨੈ ਨਾਮਿ ਲਾਏ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਚਉਥੇ ਪਦ ਮਹਿ ਸੋ ਜਨੁ ਗਤਿ ਪਾਏ ॥੫॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 284}

The Naam is the Support of all creatures. The Naam is the Support of the earth and solar systems. The Naam is the Support of the Simritees, the Vedas and the Puraanas. The Naam is the Support by which we hear of spiritual wisdom and meditation. The Naam is the Support of the Akaashic ethers and the nether regions. The Naam is the Support of all bodies. The Naam is the Support of all worlds and realms (sggs 284).

Here is another one:

ਜੀਅਹੁ ਮੈਲੇ ਬਾਹਰਹੁ ਨਿਰਮਲ ॥

jeeahu mailae baaharahu niramal ||

Inwardly polluted, and outwardly pure.

13 Raamkalee Guru Amar Das

ਬਾਹਰਹੁ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਜੀਅਹੁ ਤ ਮੈਲੇ ਤਿਨੀ ਜਨਮੁ ਜੂਐ ਹਾਰਿਆ ॥

baaharahu niramal jeeahu th mailae thinee janam jooai haariaa ||

Those who are outwardly pure and yet polluted within, lose their lives in the gamble.

13 Raamkalee Guru Amar Das

ਏਹ ਤਿਸਨਾ ਵਡਾ ਰੋਗੁ ਲਗਾ ਮਰਣੁ ਮਨਹੁ ਵਿਸਾਰਿਆ ॥

eaeh thisanaa vaddaa rog lagaa maran manahu visaariaa ||

They contract this terrible disease of desire, and in their minds, they forget about dying.

14 Raamkalee Guru Amar Das

ਵੇਦਾ ਮਹਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਉਤਮੁ ਸੋ ਸੁਣਹਿ ਨਾਹੀ ਫਿਰਹਿ ਜਿਉ ਬੇਤਾਲਿਆ ॥

vaedhaa mehi naam outham so sunehi naahee firehi jio baethaaliaa ||

In the Vedas, the ultimate objective is the Naam, the Name of the Lord; but they do not hear this, and they wander around like demons.

ਕਹੈ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਜਿਨ ਸਚੁ ਤਜਿਆ ਕੂੜੇ ਲਾਗੇ ਤਿਨੀ ਜਨਮੁ ਜੂਐ ਹਾਰਿਆ ॥੧੯॥

kehai naanak jin sach thajiaa koorrae laagae thinee janam jooai haariaa ||19||

Says Nanak, those who forsake Truth and cling to falsehood, lose their lives in the gamble. ||19||

I know you personally love the bhai kahn singh nabha interpertation of this shabad in hum hindu nahin based on your previous post on this shabad but personally speaking that interpertation is simply knee jerk reaction in insecurity in response to rss propaganda specially after looking at the fact all the teekas including bhai vir singh ji along with sampardaie teekas agrees with above interpertation.

Since you have mentioned bhai vir singh ji few times in this debate just to be consistent. If you read bhai sahib's teek in his panj granthi you will see he also interperted the tuk as pretty same as one above:

http://www.searchgurbani.com/main.php?book...ge&page=919

vaedhaa mehi naam outham so sunehi naahee firehi jio baethaaliaa ||

In the Vedas, the ultimate objective is the Naam, the Name of the Lord; but they do not hear this, and they wander around like demons.

3. I totally agree with you when you said only poora guru can give mukhti. But as i said earlier you are replacing nirgun vachak of satguru/guru in gurbani with sargun saroop of satguru nanak dev ji or shabad form-vahiguroo in the varan and bhagata di bani to make Sikhi monoply over naam and satguru word.

Here is another example:

Here bhai gurdas ji talking about bhagit kabir ji encounter with his guru ramanand ji. The line in bold, bhai gurdas talks about that the wondrous sargun form of guru- referring to bhagat ramand ji, even turns even animals and ghost into angels. Look at the theme of this shabad, its starts with bhagat kabir encounter with his guru- ramamand, just read just line before the bold one, its talk about in metaphoric language, when iron touches stone becomes gold just like guru- reffering to bhagat ramamand ji samaratha turns even animals and ghost into angels, kabir is after all human, and line after- Meeting the wonderous Guru the disciple wonderfully merges into the great wonderous Lord. the disiple- bhagat kabir and guru being his vidya gurdev. 2nd and 3rd last line distincation is made - meeting wonderous guru and merges into wonderour lord. And last line- after merging- Bhai Gurdas ji says- Ram and Kabir became indentical.

hoe birakath banaarasee rehi(n)dhaa raamaana(n)dh gusaaee||

Being detached from the world, Brahmin Ramanand lived in Varanasi (Kasi).

a(n)mrith vaelae out(h)akae jaa(n)dhaa ga(n)gaa nhaavan thaaee||

He would rise early in the morning and go to the Ganges to bathe.

ago(n) hee dhae jaaeikae la(n)maa piaa kabeer thithhaaee||

Once even before Ramanand, Kabir went there and lay in the way.

pairee(n) ttu(n)b out(h)aaliaa bolahu raam sikh samajhaaee||

Touching with his feet Ramanand awakened Kabir and told him to speak ‘Ram’, the true spiritual teaching.

jiou(n) lohaa paaras shhuhae cha(n)dhan vaas ni(n)m mehikaaee||

As the iron touched by philosopher’s stone becomes gold and the margosa tree (Azadirachta indica) is made fragrant by sandal.

pasoo paraethahu(n) dhaev kar poorae sathigur dhee vaddiaaee||

The wondrous Guru turns even animals and ghosts into angels.

acharaj no acharaj milai visamaadhae visamaadh milaaee||

Meeting the wonderous Guru the disciple wonderfully merges into the great wonderous Lord.

jharanaa jharadhaa nijharahu(n) guramukh baanee agharr gharraaee||

Then from the Self springs a fountain and the words of the gurmukhs shape a beautiful form

raam kabeerai bhaedh n bhaaee ||aa||

Now Ram and Kabir became identical.

UK is one crazy place man, i couldn't believe my eyes when i saw online huge banner on the streets- it says Jesus was muslim.. if stuff like that happens here, it be huge uproar not because it's regarding jesus but any religious prophet figure.

Yeah its laughable..lol.. but when you ask them? they go oh its from rehit nama or something silly along with that context.

Lately, I have been coming across with many materials online and in real life, which are nothing but simple knee jerk reactions to fight RSS fundamentalist or Islamic fundamentalist claim sikhi is part of sect of their Dharam?. People who have came with such sadistic materials/literature have done more damage to beautiful garden(sikhi) created by sri guru nanak dev ji than external threats attempted to...So question here comes down- is it okay to twist gurbani meanings in other words to fight these external threats? What i meant by twisting gurbani meanings i meant, is it giving out basic arths which are not familiar in academia? Note I mention academia not sampardavas' because as collective panth - teeka of sri guru granth sahib ji by scholars like- prof sahib singh , bhai vir singh ji, bhai amir singh ji teeka of bhai mani singh taksal, faridkot teeka of sri guru granth sahib is consider somewhat standard.

Please give your opinions on this matter, state your reasoning whether you agree or disagree with twisting gurbani meanings just to shut mouth of an outsider claiming how Sikhi is a sect of their dharam.

As nihang yourself, i am sure you include sri akaal ustat in your daily prayers. My intention is not to compare sri guru granth sahib with quran. I consider Gurmat to be higher as well but that does not make other paths false, just like there is a difference between pride and false pride. May be we should try to understand message of Guru maharaj to this humanity. We are no doubt intentially or non intentially making Sikhi look like another typical missionary semetic dharam no need for outsiders to do that, we are doing it ourselves.

ਹਿੰਦੂ ਤੁਰਕ ਕੋਊ ਰਾਫਜੀ ਇਮਾਮ ਸਾਫੀ ਮਾਨਸ ਕੀ ਜਾਤਿ ਸਬੈ ਏਕੈ ਪਹਿਚਾਨਬੋ ॥

हिंदू तुरक कोऊ राफजी इमाम साफी मानस की जाति सबै एकै पहिचानबो ॥

Someone is Hindu and someone a Muslim, then someone is Shia, and someone a Sunni, but all the human beings, as a species, are recognized as one and the same.

ਕਰਤਾ ਕਰੀਮ ਸੋਈ ਰਾਜਕ ਰਹੀਮ ਓਈ ਦੂਸਰੋ ਨ ਭੇਦ ਕੋਈ ਭੂਲਿ ਭ੍ਰਮ ਮਾਨਬੋ ॥

करता करीम सोई राजक रहीम ओई दूसरो न भेद कोई भूलि भ्रम मानबो ॥

Karta (The Creator) and Karim (Merciful) is the same Lord, Razak (The Sustainer) and Rahim (Compassionate) is the same Lord, there is no other second, therefore consider this verbal distinguishing feature of Hindusim and Islam as an error and an illusion.

ਏਕ ਹੀ ਕੀ ਸੇਵ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਕੋ ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ਏਕ ਏਕ ਹੀ ਸਰੂਪ ਸਬੈ ਏਕੈ ਜੋਤ ਜਾਨਬੋ ॥੧੫॥੮੫॥

एक ही की सेव सभ ही को गुरदेव एक एक ही सरूप सबै एकै जोत जानबो ॥१५॥८५॥

Thus worship the ONE LORD, who is the common enlightener of all; all have been created in His Image and amongst all comprehend the same ONE LIGHT. 15.85.

ਦੇਹਰਾ ਮਸੀਤ ਸੋਈ ਪੂਜਾ ਔ ਨਿਵਾਜ ਓਈ ਮਾਨਸ ਸਬੈ ਏਕ ਪੈ ਅਨੇਕ ਕੋ ਭ੍ਰਮਾਉ ਹੈ ॥

देहरा मसीत सोई पूजा औ निवाज ओई मानस सबै एक पै अनेक को भ्रमाउ है ॥

The temple and the mosque are the same, there is no difference between a Hindu worship and Muslim prayer; all the human beings are the same, but the illusion is of various types.

ਦੇਵਤਾ ਅਦੇਵ ਜੱਛ ਗੰਧ੍ਰਬ ਤੁਰਕ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਨਿਆਰੇ ਨਿਆਰੇ ਦੇਸਨ ਕੇ ਭੇਸ ਕੋ ਪ੍ਰਭਾਉ ਹੈ ॥

देवता अदेव ज्छ गंध्रब तुरक हिंदू निआरे निआरे देसन के भेस को प्रभाउ है ॥

The gods, demons, Yakshas, Gandharvas, Turks and Hindus… all these are due to the differences of the various garbs of different countries.

ਏਕੈ ਨੈਨ ਏਕੈ ਕਾਨ ਏਕੈ ਦੇਹ ਏਕੈ ਬਾਨ ਖਾਕ ਬਾਦ ਆਤਿਸ ਔ ਆਬ ਕੋ ਰਲਾਉ ਹੈ ॥

एकै नैन एकै कान एकै देह एकै बान खाक बाद आतिस औ आब को रलाउ है ॥

The eyes are the same, the ears the same, the bodies are the same and the habits are the same, all the creation is the amalgam of earth, air, fire and water.

ਅਲਹ ਅਭੇਖ ਸੋਈ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਅਉ ਕੁਰਾਨ ਓਈ ਏਕ ਹੀ ਸਰੂਪ ਸਭੈ ਏਕ ਹੀ ਬਨਾਉ ਹੈ ॥੧੬॥੮੬॥

अलह अभेख सोई पुरान अउ कुरान ओई एक ही सरूप सभै एक ही बनाउ है ॥१६॥८६॥

Allah of Muslims and Abhekh (Guiseless) of Hindus are the same, the Puranas of Hindus and the holy Quran of the Muslims depict the same reality; all have been created in the image of the same Lord and have the same formation. 16.86.

Besides, Islam isn't a religion, it is a fascist political ideology of Arab imperialism.

This is quite ignorant statement, ironically enough ignorant westerner would say same thing about Sikhism. How Sikhism is militant movement.

Two wrong does not make it right.

I am sure sri guru nanak dev ji should be very proud of us.

Bijla Singh,

I will respond back to your initial post in next couple of days, this weekend is quite busy for me. stay tuned.

Not pointing at anyone just general observation. I am in the process of editing personal attacks...if things does not improve, warnings will be given to violaters.

Guys keep it cool here, take a deep breath guys, have a mutual respect towards each other. Personal attacks no go in this place

Fateh!

From what I could make of your argument, it seemed to suggest that it was only prem that was important. Am I correct in my understanding?

If this is correct, why is worshipping Krishna as the form of Waheguru any different to worshipping Zeus (or Superman for that matter) as a form of Waheguru, since at the end of the day it is only prem bhagti and the upasak's belief that matters? If this is so, what difference is there between worshipping a stone and imagining that it is Akal Purakh?

Regards,

K.

Singh sorry, but can you please carefully read this thread you opened - http://www.sikhawareness.com//index.php?showtopic=11526 . I thought i was very clear what i meant in discussion with bijla singh. Hint Hint- Please read lines in bold in my post. Your query should be best discussed in the other thread that you opened veer , its already been discussed there anyway but if still unsure we can discuss it there. I don't want to go off-topic on this thread as this is different topic all together.

Are you saying that worship of any of the deities of any pantheon will grant similar results to worship of Nirguna Parbrahma? If not, and this only applies to the deities of the Hindu mythological pantheon, why do they deserve such an honour?

Kalyug veer, your question was already answered in the thread that you opened up where sargun and nirgun upasana was discussed.

I think other party should stop doing lalkarie for holding debate just in Canada instead they should be open for more options. If gurmukhs are ready for debate in India with them, they should accept that and whenever make a trip to India they should gather. By looking at the fact, anyone from abroad can go to India anytime they wish but anyone from india cannot just go abroad anytime they wish due to immigration.

I would like to see less lalkaraie and more action from the khalsa fauj party.

Also going back in topic, sant gurbachan singh ji bhindranwale who spent close to 50 years studying all granths including sanatan ones said gurmat marg has nirole tat gyan of nirgun vahiguroo but that does not make other school of thoughts/marg/matts false, they also have tat gyan of nirgun bhram too for eg- vedant, ant of vedas- tat nichor of vedas, but its hard for normal person to decipher due to linguistic barriers and unncessary karam kaands mentioned in them.