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I posted my response on sikhsangat - http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/74028-does-budha-dal-question-authorship-of-sarbloh-granth/page-2#entry604797

Menu lagda kuch garbar aa...ki gaal mitra? afeem ta nahi sakki?

singh1984 are you gtloc? Multiple user ids are not allowed..let me know which one to keep so that we can disable other id.

Just swinging by- no offense to anyone just honest observation - same old crap everywhere in this world- each tribe or race chelas or followers wants to claim supermacy, its like freaking rat race to get on top-get trophy from eagle eyes..lol...one day illusory rats like us destroyed by kaal will pass away in our own flith while fighting..wow..what a illusory world and what a illusory people.

I will end with couplet from sri dasam guru granth by sri guru gobind singh ji which reinforces underlining absolute reality, read it with open eyes, if that does not set the record and give people perspective ..i don't know what will..thats why sri dasam granth sahib is soo important its just not raw bir ras of sipahi, it intertwins bir ras with absolute reality-underlining reality of everything so khalsa has always pure perception of reality and is always grounded, humble, only considers ultimate reality/all prevading vahiguroo powerful and no one else- not specific tribe or race.

ਜੋਗੀ ਜਤੀ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਚਾਰੀ ਬਡੇ ਬਡੇ ਛਤ੍ਰਧਾਰੀ ਛਤ੍ਰ ਹੀ ਕੀ ਛਾਇਆ ਕਈ ਕੋਸ ਲੌ ਚਲਤ ਹੈਂ ॥
जोगी जती ब्रहमचारी बडे बडे छत्रधारी छत्र ही की छाइआ कई कोस लौ चलत हैं ॥
The Yougis, celibates and students observing celibacy, many great sovereigns, who walk several miles under the shade of canopy.

ਬਡੇ ਬਡੇ ਰਾਜਨ ਕੇ ਦਾਬਿਤ ਫਿਰਤਿ ਦੇਸ ਬਡੇ ਬਡੇ ਰਾਜਨ ਕੇ ਦ੍ਰਪ ਕੋ ਦਲਤ ਹੈਂ ॥

बडे बडे राजन के दाबित फिरति देस बडे बडे राजन के द्रप को दलत हैं ॥
Who conquer the countries of many great kings and bruise their ego.

ਮਾਨ ਸੇ ਮਹੀਪ ਔ ਦਿਲੀਪ ਕੈਸੇ ਛਤ੍ਰਧਾਰੀ ਬਡੋ ਅਭਿਮਾਨ ਭੁਜ ਦੰਡ ਕੋ ਕਰਤ ਹੈਂ ॥
मान से महीप औ दिलीप कैसे छत्रधारी बडो अभिमान भुज दंड को करत हैं ॥
The Sovereign like Mandhata and the Canopied Sovereign like Dalip, who were proud of their mightly forces.

ਦਾਰਾ ਸੇ ਦਿਲੀਸਰ ਦੁ੍ਰਜੋਧਨ ਸੇ ਮਾਨਧਾਰੀ ਭੋਗ ਭੋਗ ਭੂਮਿ ਅੰਤ ਭੂਮਿ ਮੈ ਮਿਲਤ ਹੈਂ ॥੮॥੭੮॥
दारा से दिलीसर दु्रजोधन से मानधारी भोग भोग भूमि अंत भूमि मै मिलत हैं ॥८॥७८॥
The emperor like Darius and the great egoist like Duryodhana, after enjoying the earthly pleasures, finally merged in the earth.8.78.

ਤਬ ਤਬ ਦੇਹ ਧਰਤ ਅਵਤਾਰਾ ॥
तब तब देह धरत अवतारा ॥
Then the Lord manifests himself in physical form;


ਕਾਲ ਸਭਨ ਕੋ ਪੇਖ ਤਮਾਸਾ ॥
काल सभन को पेख तमासा ॥
The KAL (Destroyer Lord) scans the play of all,

ਅੰਤਹ ਕਾਲ ਕਰਤ ਹੈ ਨਾਸਾ ॥੨॥
अंतह काल करत है नासा ॥२॥
And ultimately destroys all.2.

Chaubis avtar, dasam granth

ਕਾਲ ਰੂਪ ਭਗਵਾਨ ਭਨੈਬੋ ॥
काल रूप भगवान भनैबो ॥
The Lord, Who is known as KAL;

ਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਲੀਨ ਜਗਤਿ ਸਭ ਹ੍ਵੈਬੋ ॥੩੪॥
ता महि लीन जगति सभ ह्वैबो ॥३४॥
All the world will merge in Him.34.

ਰਸਾਵਲ ਛੰਦ ॥

रसावल छंद ॥
RASAAVAL STANZA

ਜਿਤੇ ਰਾਮ ਹੂਏ ॥ ਸਭੈ ਅੰਤਿ ਮੂਏ ॥
जिते राम हूए ॥ सभै अंति मूए ॥
All the Ramas who incarnated, ultimately passed away.

ਜਿਤੇ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਹੈਂ ॥ ਸਭੈ ਅੰਤਿ ਜੈ ਹੈਂ ॥੭੦॥
जिते क्रिसन ह्वै हैं ॥ सभै अंति जै हैं ॥७०॥
All the Krishnas, who had incarnated, have all passed away.70.

ਜਿਤੇ ਦੇਵ ਹੋਸੀ ॥ ਸਭੈ ਅੰਤ ਜਾਸੀ ॥
जिते देव होसी ॥ सभै अंत जासी ॥
All the gods who will come into being in future, they will all ultimately expire.

ਜਿਤੇ ਬੋਧ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਹੈਂ ॥ ਸਭੈ ਅੰਤਿ ਛੈਹੈਂ ॥੭੧॥
जिते बोध ह्वै हैं ॥ सभै अंति छैहैं ॥७१॥
Alll the Buddhas, who came into being, expired ultimately.71.

ਜਿਤੇ ਦੇਵ ਰਾਯੰ ॥ ਸਭੈ ਅੰਤ ਜਾਯੰ ॥
जिते देव रायं ॥ सभै अंत जायं ॥
All the god-kings, who came into being, ultimately passed away.

ਜਿਤੇ ਦਈਤ ਏਸੰ ॥ ਤਿਤਿਓ ਕਾਲ ਲੇਸੰ ॥੭੨॥
जिते दईत एसं ॥ तितिओ काल लेसं ॥७२॥
All the demon-kings, who came into being, they were all destroyed by KAL.72.

ਨਰਸਿੰਘਾਵਤਾਰੰ ॥ ਵਹੈ ਕਾਲ ਮਾਰੰ ॥

नरसिंघावतारं ॥ वहै काल मारं ॥
The incarnation Narsingh was also killed by KAL.

ਬਡੋ ਡੰਡ ਧਾਰੀ ॥ ਹਣਿਓ ਕਾਲ ਭਾਰੀ ॥੭੩॥
बडो डंड धारी ॥ हणिओ काल भारी ॥७३॥
The incarnation with grinder teeth (i.e. Boar) was killed by mighty KAL.73.

ਦਿਜੰ ਬਾਵਨੇਯੰ ॥ ਹਣਿਓ ਕਾਲ ਤੇਯੰ ॥
दिजं बावनेयं ॥ हणिओ काल तेयं ॥
Vaman, the Brahmin incarnation, was killed by KAL.

ਮਹਾ ਮੱਛ ਮੁੰਡੰ ॥ ਫਧਿਓ ਕਾਲ ਝੁੰਡੰ ॥੭੪॥
महा म्छ मुंडं ॥ फधिओ काल झुंडं ॥७४॥
The Fish incarnation of spatious mouth, was entrapped by KAL.74.

ਜਿਤੇ ਹੋਇ ਬੀਤੇ ॥ ਤਿਤੇ ਕਾਲ ਜੀਤੇ ॥
जिते होइ बीते ॥ तिते काल जीते ॥
All those who had come into being, they were all conquered by KAL.

ਜਿਤੇ ਸਰਨਿ ਜੈਹੈਂ ॥ਤਿਤਿਓ ਰਾਖ ਲੈਹੈਂ ॥੭੫॥
जिते सरनि जैहैं ॥तितिओ राख लैहैं ॥७५॥
Those who will go under His Refuge, they will all be saved by him.75.

Khalistan land of pure enlighten beings kinda like (Begum pura bhagat ravidas talks about) is very noble idea until fanatics hijacks it and ruins every thing to the point I am being forced to coin term peaceful khalistan more often to distinguish the idea of khalistan and keeping idea of khalistan land of pure to its original form.

Thanks Dalsingh, any chance to post snippets regarding this from book for people who don't have the book?

I found very interesting picture on facebook of gyani sher singh ji holding Budda dal Asth Bunga. I would really appreciate if someone gives us some deep insight of symbolism of it and history behind this symbolism. Is it correct to say this is our khalsa puratan nishan sahib?

Here is the picture:

http://dailysikhupdates.com/2014/03/06/video-onreality-of-many-punjabis-goes-viral/

Preferably but perhaps not mandatory.

Thread was not deleted but rather in approval section, will go through the contents before we make a decision..we may ask to change the title..either way we will let you know.. Insulting any religion is not encouraged on this forum...please re-read the rules of forum.

great seva bro, please keep them coming.

Welcome back tsingh...so good to see you again..I hope you pass through these topics as well..they are desperately need your attention too bro

Found this amazing art below...interpretation of death and life, interpreted as ignorance(darkness), bhramgyan(light), also could be interpreted as shiv shakti , aad shakti and also could be interpreted as illustration of nirgun and sargun in visible form..look beyond shiv- put dumalla on the picture for all i care, put khanda on the hand.....many hidden messages behind the pictorial representation below, vibrations at the bottom appear sound/dhun vibrations like- ongkar dhunni as from ongkar shabad dhuni everything came..!!

Another one i forgot - kaal and akaal together..!!!!!!!!

but i would like to ask can aad shakti be confined to the Sword?

I don't think it can be confined to the sword only just like it cannot be only confined to shiv shakat/devi. There are many aspects of aad shakti in gurbani such as parloa, maha parloa- destruction, kaal and maha kaal, narsingh representation. I don't think its meant to be confined to only one aspect.

I consider its a never ending flow- folding and unfolding itself from shabad/nirgun to sargun- rajo, tamo, sato and from sargun- rajo, tamo(aad shakti), sato back to nirgun.

I think for that same reason, nihang raw shastar pooja was criticized by bhai vir singh ji, you cannot capture/confine flow of divinity into shastar pooja only or any rituals for that matter, its flow supposed/meant to be connected to our human consciousness and our human consciousness should be one with the flow..i m not against shastar pooja or any kind of sargun rituals- i m more concerned with devote state of mind/road blocks which are created doing those rituals for lack of understanding...students definitely need a mahapursh to clear all the doubts or talk about their state of mind..if we listen carefully to sant gurbachan singh bhindranwale of 21st asthapadi of sukhmani sahib, its beautiful its 45 minutes long..he goes through asthapadi each pauri , i consider its a guidance for people who idolize things and create road blocks for themselves, make no mistake sargun and nirgun are one, its never ending flow of advait ikongkar.

Listen to Gyani Inderjjet Singh Ji's katha. He extensively mentions devi did not appear but aad-shakti. Some aspects in history are metaphorical others are not. Baba Jagjeet Singh Ji Harkhowal wale also concurs though he does not explicitly adopt Gyani Ji's mode of thought. He mentions add-shakti though in the form of a sword manifesting.

I agree with aad shakti. However, Aad shakti cannot be confined in naina devi temple or in one pictorial representation. Aad shakti, shiv shakti are all synonymous term of daiv shakti of akaal purkh have different forms- such as shiv shakat, bhaguati, shakti-shakta aspect, it goes quite deep.

What i am arguing here over importance given going to naina devi temple as a tirath after going to anand pur sahib, there is no need to go to any devi temple and perform those rituals to invoke shakti before yudh whereas khalsa is already given bhaugati and bhaugati is central theme to invoke daiv shakti...thats pretty much it..going beyond it, its wrapping your head around it, wrapping your head around any rituals and confining akaal purkh in the ritual is condemned in gurmat.

I recall hearing about Guru Gobind Singh ji doing a Havan at Naina Devi the day before Vaisakhi. Over at Anandpur Sahib, they say your pilgrimage is not complete till you have been to Naina Devi as well.

I don't believe for one second that sri guru gobind singh ji did havan at Naina Devi, there was no need for guru avtari pursh to do havan to invoke shakti etc, they were highest sargun avtar saroop of akaal purkh even for hari avtar saroop of sri akaal purkh such as ram chandar ji or sri krishan ji most likely didn't do any havan themselves to invoke naina devi, shakti or anything, lets just say even if they did, they probably did so to maintain yug dharam maryada in their respective yugas..fast fwd to kalyug or current yug yudh dharam maryada- Naam abhyas, sri dasam granth yudh compositions such as chandi di var, chandi charitar, shastar naam mala etc banis along with Kshatriya tradition like chatka- shastar puja trumps havan, hom at naina devi/kali devi etc. Sikh shouldn't wrap their head around too many rituals but rather concentrate on tat gyan teachings of gurbani and sri dasam granth sahib yudh banis.

So Brahmgiani don't do simran or kirtan, etc?

They do but they do so...so that their disciples and jaigaso(students)/sangat overall, don't go astray by copying them. Overall, they don't need to. They are already merged with bhram, there is no dualism left or difference between them and vahiguroo.

Please see below for more information on their bhramgyani state and dual consciousness:

This is must listen. Please listen to audio by sant jagjit singh ji harkhowale regarding characteristics of Jevan Mukht and Bedah Mukht. Basically people who cannot understand punjabi...i will try to explain as much my buddhi can:

http://www.gurmatveechar.com/audios/Katha/02_Present_Day_Katha/Baba_Jagjit_Singh_%28Harkhowal_wale%29/Man_Budh_Atam/08--Baba.Jagjit.Singh.%28Harkhowal.wale%29--Aatma.Ki.Hai.mp3 (From 80.55 minutes until end)

Jevan Mukht- A person who is jevan mukht stays in sehaj avastha, have double consciousnesses, can engage in worldly duties because their sattvic mind(satoguni mind) is still there to do parchar/spread love/kindness to this world, rajo and tamogun portion of mind its destroyed.

Bedah Mukht- A person who is bedah mukht can only survive days, they are in nirvkalap samadhi(non transcendental meditative state), they have totally negate their mind (made of rajo, tamo, sato), antish karan, there is no coming back, they cannot do kriya on their own, their disciples try to feed them just to keep them alive to see them in smadhi.

Sant Hari Singh Ji Randhawale said in divan, he came across with such one person of bedah mukht avastha who was at bedah muhkht avastha at haridvar, there were lines of people who were awaiting to do their darshan.

People who don't beleive in great sakhiya baba deep singh ji cutting their head and fighting or bhai mani singh shaheedi should research more on bedah mukht avastha before getting stuck in web of sansas(doubts).

Does gurbani differentiate between sargun and nirgun rituals?

Not sure about clearly differentiating them. However gurbani does give indication about nine types of sargun bhagti/rituals towards sri guru granth sahib ji (shabad guru) and rituals associated with it such as akhand patt/presence of mukht roha -shaheed singhs etc.

Only bhramgyani or utam jaigaso based on their level of consciousness and state of mind can do nirgun bhagti.

Baba Tirath Singh Nirmala in his translation of Pundit Gulab Singhs Bhavrasamrit (p42-44) mentions the nine limbs of Bhakti which are referred to in the Sikh tradition as the Nvai Parkar (Nine methods):

1. Sravan - hearing the divine* praises.

2. Kirtan - singing the praised of the divine.

3. Simran - remembrance of the divines name.

4. Padsevena - service and offerings at the divines feet.

5. Archana - worship the divine.

6. Bandana - prostration before the divine.

7. Dasyam - developing feeling or emotion of being the divine's servant.

8. Sakhyam - cultivating the emotional bond of friendship.

9. Atma Nivedana - surrender of the self to the divine.

SGGS Ang- 71

Bhagat Navaie Parkara.

There are nine forms of devotional worship

N30Singh, what do you mean? and where did you get this metaphor from?

I asked regarding havan or hom to sant jagjit singh ji harkhowal- If baba deep singh ji did hom or havan? Thats what baba ji responded back. It perfectably make sense. It does not make sense for bhramgyani/atamgyani to do hom or havan..he is already above all these sargun rituals..!!

not sure but i heard jot attracting shaheed singhs and mukht roha are mentioned in bhindran taksal works such as gurbani patt darshan/darshan, gurmat rehit maryada, gurmukh parkash ..let me know if you find anything in your research from taksali works..here is more information on sant gyani gurbachan singh bhindranwale granths: http://www.sikhawareness.com/index.php/topic/7348-sant-gurbachan-singh-ji-bhindranwales-granths/

Another being the query that is Havan even part of Sargun Bhagti?

I wouldn't call it sargun bhagti as it wasn't meant for a daily thing but was probably used by singhs prior to going to battle field - seeking blessing/power of shaheed singhs- sikh equivalent to demi gods (devi/devtas).

Indeed, its an well known fact acknowledged by taksali that jot during sri akhand patt sahib attracts shaheed singhs and shaheed singhs/demi gods comes during patt to listen and give its blessing- given the fact if sri akhand patt sahib is performed with full vidhi.

Good topic, i also like to post research on this by maharaj kirpa:

From what I know and learnt from Baba Jagjeet Singh Ji Harkhowal Wale's Katha, Baba Ji did a havan but a havan of the mind. That is he burnt his desire to live in the fire of Brahmgyanta.

Exactly i asked sant ji this question, he mentioned this as well- havan of mind is biggest havan where you put your thoughts as samagri in havan and with fire of bhramgyan burned them into ashes.

Vahiguroo..!!!